Band bitching

[Andrew07]

So I'm not recording drums at my place anymore and have decided to record at my buddy's as he has a better sounding drum room. He charges $35 an hour but knocked it down to $25 for me (I charge $15...should i raise it?). So I had booked this band with me but forgot to tell them that the drums would be more $$$ since it was at a different studio. The session is May 5 BTW. So I tell them and they start bitching.

Them: wait thats hella not fair. so now we have to pay 25??
Me:If you want to record, yes
Them:wtf. why is that.
Me: If you don't like it feel free to record somewhere else
Them: i know but thats still not fair how you tell us we can record for 15 and then make us record somwhere else for more money.
Me: Then you can record somewhere else. Thanks
Them: alright then. thats so fuckin rediculous. that such bad business ethic. changing prices on bands

Then after that they switched sides and started saying "Well, $25 isn't that bad for just drums. We're gonna talk about it"

What do you guys think I should say next? I don't really need the money or want to do the project. I'm leaning towards "You can't talk shit then except me to record you guys. Fuck off....your band sucks by the way"

[DT Chris]

Happens with customers all the time in sales. They want something for nothing. They realized it wasn't a bad deal and came back to you. Take the money. Business is business. Who cares if you like them or not.

And yes, if the competition is charging $35 for similar services, and you've been doing it for $15, raise your prices to put more profit in your pocket, yet still remain competitive at $29 an hour.

[brandondrury]

And yes, if the competition is charging $35 for similar services, and you've been doing it for $15, raise your prices to put more profit in your pocket, yet still remain competitive at $29 an hour.

I'd agree with this in 99.999% of all cases.

The problem here is you are the customer in some ways. You are shopping for the best bands possible to provide you the service of furthering your audion engineering work. If the band provides a poor service to you, than you end up not only looking bad, but you never further your own engineering.

In other words, if the band sucks, you suck.

No home builder would ever agree to bulid a house made of straw for an encentric client because he would forever be known as the home builder who had a house fall in after the first rain. He'd probably never work again.

However, many engineers continue to work for peanuts and all they are really doing is handing out blankets to the homeless and essentially keeping themselves homeless in an endless cycle.

Did you guys listen to that mix that damn kid cranked out that sounded like Coheed? Obviously, the tracking was robo-pro. The kid grabbed the tracks, adjusted some levels and called it day. I'm not saying the kid sucks, but I will say that there is no way that the mix made those tracks as good as they were.

Because has an amazing sound project, he has a great chance of working with another top band in his area. He'll be on his way to the fast track. It's possible that one of the bands he worked with will get signed. The sky is the limit. All because he cranked out a great project. Of course, things may not pan out. At least he has a chance. No $15 per hour band has a chance.

Brandon

[richiebee]

I think part of it comes down to whether this is your living. I only work with a tiny number of people. I don't need the money and I don't need the custom. If I do something it has to be because I want to it. I won't shit around with customers with bad attitudes.

[Andrew07]

The band isn't that good. I'm a student first, but I also have several other bands that want to record but I didn't have any free days. These guys were acting like whiny little kids and repeatedly sent me email messages saying "call us back. please call us back. hurry i have to work in the morning." when I wasn't at the computer. So I told them you can't bitch and talk shit to me and expect me to want to work with you. PEACE. The only other decent studio in town charges $50 I believe...

I'm actually finally taking your advice, Brandon. Besides a couple short favors here and there I'm trying to work with good artists that either have connections to bands/management or can hook me up in some way. A very good Christian artist is going to hire me as a consultant to teach them how to use their Pro Tools studio for a pretty hefty price. I'm hoping they will give me access to it aftewards or possibly hire me to assist them

[DT Chris]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

The problem here is you are the customer in some ways. You are shopping for the best bands possible to provide you the service of furthering your audio engineering work. If the band provides a poor service to you, than you end up not only looking bad, but you never further your own engineering.

In other words, if the band sucks, you suck.

If you're well-established I agree. If you're just starting out, any project is a good project. Even if it's a bad experience, it's still experience.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

No home builder would ever agree to bulid a house made of straw for an encentric client because he would forever be known as the home builder who had a house fall in after the first rain. He'd probably never work again.

This is true. I own my own business and if a painting project is called for, I refuse to do a 1-layer 'discount-store' priced paint job on their house. Most customers ask for the cheap price, and I refuse it. I tell them what the proper job entails (educating them), and explain why it costs more, then sell them on getting the proper job done. Not only will the customer be happier in the long run, but if anyone else sees my work, they won't be saying "Oh look what a crap job". I'm not there to defend myself saying "It's a crap job because that's what they wanted and paid for".

But let's not make generalist statements. Sometimes you do take jobs that pay less, because that's the way it is - that's all the customer can afford. It's still money coming in, experience, and another customer. I've had customers come back to me for the 'proper' job when their circumstances changed, or I sold them on doing it right the next time.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

However, many engineers continue to work for peanuts and all they are really doing is handing out blankets to the homeless and essentially keeping themselves homeless in an endless cycle.

Yes, as in every business, one has to know what one's services is worth, then charge likewise - then back it up with expertise to validate what is being charged.

Originally Posted by Andrew07

The band isn't that good. I'm a student first, but I also have several other bands that want to record but I didn't have any free days. These guys were acting like whiny little kids and repeatedly sent me email messages saying "call us back. please call us back. hurry i have to work in the morning." when I wasn't at the computer. So I told them you can't bitch and talk shit to me and expect me to want to work with you. PEACE. The only other decent studio in town charges $50 I believe...

Hey if you're busy and don't need their business, then brush them off. If you're just brushing them off because of their attitude, I don't necessarily like that solution. Part of being in sales is learning how to deal with difficult customers - one day you're going to have to learn how to put hostile or disrespectful customers back in line - and take their money. Running away won't do anything. You both lost in this situation.

This may sound oversimplified, but the conversation could have also entailed "Look, I'd be happy to take on your project, but here are the ground rules..."
"Yes, this studio costs more, but I think it's to the benefit of your band - and it's still a very good deal, etc"

You lost your cool, and with it, you lost the sale. I know all about this, in my early days of sales, I lost many sales because "I won the argument". Then I'd be driving home at the end of the day saying to myself "Dammit, I didn't have to handle it that way... I could have said/done that and probably would have got the sale, but I lost my cool and won the argument - and lost the sale"

This should have nothing to do with how good the band is. If they have money and want to spend it recording their crap, then why not? I'm sure there are many great bands that started off with crappy music and crappy, immature attitudes - yet there was always someone mature enough and 'above it all' to look past their stupidity and give them a shot anyway...

Forgive me if these statements aren't relevant to your situation, I don't know anything about you, or your experience.

[brandondrury]

The band isn't that good.

I wouldn't expect anything less when charging $15 per hour.

I'm actually finally taking your advice, Brandon. Besides a couple short favors here and there I'm trying to work with good artists that either have connections to bands/management or can hook me up in some way. A very good Christian artist is going to hire me as a consultant to teach them how to use their Pro Tools studio for a pretty hefty price. I'm hoping they will give me access to it aftewards or possibly hire me to assist them

Now you are talking. You are what you eat. So quit eating shitty bands and eat good bands....or something.

If you're well-established I agree. If you're just starting out, any project is a good project. Even if it's a bad experience, it's still experience.

You do have to approch this a little differently when you are brand new. Experience is the most important thing at first. However, there is a point where the recording is out of your hands (if you are not producing). The second that the client makes a bigger difference to the recording than you do, it's time to immediately time to stop recording shitty bands (your reputation requires it).

This is true. I own my own business and if a painting project is called for, I refuse to do a 1-layer 'discount-store' priced paint job on their house. Most customers ask for the cheap price, and I refuse it. I tell them what the proper job entails (educating them), and explain why it costs more, then sell them on getting the proper job done. Not only will the customer be happier in the long run, but if anyone else sees my work, they won't be saying "Oh look what a crap job". I'm not there to defend myself saying "It's a crap job because that's what they wanted and paid for".

I 100% agree!

But let's not make generalist statements. Sometimes you do take jobs that pay less, because that's the way it is - that's all the customer can afford. It's still money coming in, experience, and another customer. I've had customers come back to me for the 'proper' job when their circumstances changed, or I sold them on doing it right the next time.

Sure. However, there is an old saying that you are only as good as your last project. The studio thing is a bit different than painting because most painters I know plan on providing a service to their local area, 40 hours per week, until retirement or lottery. Most engineers want to work their way up to engineering Metallica or Tom Petty.

If a person wants to run a successful local business, it is a good idea to consider taking on broke clients. However, if a person is only interested in eventually "making it", they have to take a different path.

Of course, I believe that if a few great records get out with my name on them (I'm still working on that one) than I'm going have a very steady amount of work come in the future...even if it is just local and just for money.

Yes, as in every business, one has to know what one's services is worth, then charge likewise - then back it up with expertise to validate what is being charged.

Correct. What if a person's worth (in this case, previous recordings) is being held back by poor clients and crappy bands?

The great paradox of this whole recording thing is Bob Rock or George Massenberg couldn't make a terrible band sound amazing. They couldn't even make a terrible band sound anything other than terrible (unless they are producing and can hire/fire people).

If Bob Rock came to my house and worked with the worst band I know and had the same time and situation I was in, the recording would sound terrible. (Probably a lot better than mine, but still terrible).

This may sound oversimplified, but the conversation could have also entailed "Look, I'd be happy to take on your project, but here are the ground rules..."
"Yes, this studio costs more, but I think it's to the benefit of your band - and it's still a very good deal, etc"

Perfect!

This should have nothing to do with how good the band is. If they have money and want to spend it recording their crap, then why not? I'm sure there are many great bands that started off with crappy music and crappy, immature attitudes - yet there was always someone mature enough and 'above it all' to look past their stupidity and give them a shot anyway...

This one is complicated. If you have nothing better to do and could use the money, a good paying client is a good paying client. Everyone has to take on crappy gigs to get by from time to time.

However, if you KNOW the recording is going to sound terrible, just remember that recording is almost entirely word of mouth. 90% of "the sale" is when some guy 40 miles from your house gives another guy a cd-r of his band. It doesn't take long for people to say "That guy sucks!".

This has happened to me several times.

I may as well filmed myself slamming a baby on street and shown that to all my respective clients for a little while. Of course, bands who only have $15 per hour to spend, will go with the baby smasher.

Brandon