War & Trees - wireman mix

[wireman957]

First of all, thanks Brandon for the tracks - nicely recorded and generally easy to work with.

I was involved in that conversation last month on willj's June thread, regarding "80's sounding snares". At the time, I threatened to use a big ol' gated 80's snare this month regardless of the musical genre, so imagine my relief when this one came up. Couldn't help myself - this song just kinda lent itself to that snare sound, so there you go!

This was a fun mix - I used more different reverbs (both plugins and hardware), delays, modulation FX and automation than I can remember ever using in one mix and probably could have used more. I tried to keep a lot of the effects on the subtle side, but you guys can be the judge of how successful I was in that regard.

I also thought this song (and genre in general) needed a big bottom and "airy" top, so grab your shades, it's maybe a little brighter than some other mixes!

Hope you enjoy it, and feel free to bash away.

[fHumble fHingaz]

Really nice mix, Jeff! Beautiful width & "air" in the mix - the choruses sound great!

I guess the only criticism I have is that the lead vocals have a bit of a "nasally" quality to them, that makes them sound a little "small" - They fit better into the context of the choruses because of their "skinny" quality, but I feel they may have better served the verses if you had left a little more sonic "meat" on them.

That's really my only negative... otherwise, top job!

[Magnolius]

Great mix! The mix has your trade mark clarity to it I like your reverb tratments, great space between the different instruments even in a action packed song like this. I have two comments. You have chosen a straight forward approach to the recorded material. I respect that but I often feel that sessions more often than not needs creative editing during the mix stage to breath life in to them. I've recorded a lot as a musician and it's so easy to do too much and play on too many sections in a song, and then another instrumentalist does the same and so on and so forth... This song also has many competing parts that runs pretty static through the whole song. I think you could have lifted the song by being bolder with the arrangement and really highlighted the different elements on at a time instead of making room for all of them. My other comment is related, I feel the mix is a bit thin. Now I think the mix as a whole is really well balanced but with so many elements competing for space they all sound a little anemic to me.

Don't get me wrong this is a really solid mix, as we all expect from you I just try to communicate what would have got my emotions going a little more.

[wireman957]

I guess the only criticism I have is that the lead vocals have a bit of a "nasally" quality to them, that makes them sound a little "small" - They fit better into the context of the choruses because of their "skinny" quality, but I feel they may have better served the verses if you had left a little more sonic "meat" on them.

That's really my only negative... otherwise, top job!

Thanks for the kind words - and criticism well-taken. I actually did automate the EQ a bit, mostly the high pass, on the lead vocals. Maybe not enough. Just wanted to keep as much continuity as I could throughout the song. Like I said, I tried for subtlety - it's entirely possible I was too subtle and more "boldness" wold have worked better for me.

[wireman957]

Great mix! The mix has your trade mark clarity to it I like your reverb tratments, great space between the different instruments even in a action packed song like this. I have two comments. You have chosen a straight forward approach to the recorded material. I respect that but I often feel that sessions more often than not needs creative editing during the mix stage to breath life in to them. I've recorded a lot as a musician and it's so easy to do too much and play on too many sections in a song, and then another instrumentalist does the same and so on and so forth... This song also has many competing parts that runs pretty static through the whole song. I think you could have lifted the song by being bolder with the arrangement and really highlighted the different elements on at a time instead of making room for all of them. My other comment is related, I feel the mix is a bit thin. Now I think the mix as a whole is really well balanced but with so many elements competing for space they all sound a little anemic to me.

Don't get me wrong this is a really solid mix, as we all expect from you I just try to communicate what would have got my emotions going a little more.

Understood and respected. Thanks for the honest and succinct critique. I also thought the parts were pretty static, but the way things were layered during tracking seemed to indicate the players knew what they wanted so I tried different ways to get some "movement" out of things. For example, the "virus" synth was really static throughout which is why I went for the modulation FX starting at the second chorus. I also extended a couple of phrases so that they blended better timewise. Same with the solo synth. I didn't like where it ended so I extended it to fade into the final choruses. As for the need to rearrange more, I dunno. I'm of mixed feelings when it comes to a mix engineer playing too loose with an artist's concept without the option of direct input from said artist, and in this case I think Brandon did make the point that all the parts were necessary (maybe not all at the time though, so a point for you on that front).

[m24p]

Man, this mix would be killer for sure, but you didn't tune the vox... That telltale flat "pride" in "sense of pride" gives away the reason these vox don't sound like synth-pop vox. These vox kinda needed tuning, even though I would probably tune them even if they didn't, for this genre. I know it's tedious, it was my least favorite part, but these vox needed tuning and some editing as well.

I like what you did with the bridge, and that is a tasty snare. You're right, this song was just begging for a huge snare. I'd argue that it really needs it for the groove to work right.

[wireman957]

Man, this mix would be killer for sure, but you didn't tune the vox... That telltale flat "pride" in "sense of pride" gives away the reason these vox don't sound like synth-pop vox. These vox kinda needed tuning, even though I would probably tune them even if they didn't, for this genre. I know it's tedious, it was my least favorite part, but these vox needed tuning and some editing as well.

I like what you did with the bridge, and that is a tasty snare. You're right, this song was just begging for a huge snare. I'd argue that it really needs it for the groove to work right.

Actually, I did tune the lead vox during the choruses and parts of the verses that I thought were most egregious. I debated just tuning them all, but in the end decided not to for the simple fact that they were all that made the song sound "human". Once again an "executive decision" perhaps hastily made. Thanks for the comments and the kind words, and I felt the same way re: the snare/groove!

[bobbybovine]

Hey Jeff, great work once again. I can't really fault anything technically with this mix. I would like a little more low end with this track though but maybe that is only because I am choosing a more bottom heavy mix. You have manged to get some good stereo spread on the different synths which really opens up the mix. I was hoping you would have bailed on the 80's snare so I could have a reason to give you a 1 but you foiled me there The vox do sound a touch thin but nothing serious and I am sure it was a concious decision. Top marks from me.

[m24p]

Actually, I did tune the lead vox during the choruses and parts of the verses that I thought were most egregious. I debated just tuning them all, but in the end decided not to for the simple fact that they were all that made the song sound "human". Once again an "executive decision" perhaps hastily made. Thanks for the comments and the kind words, and I felt the same way re: the snare/groove!

It's been my experience that once you hear something out of tune enough times, you'll decide it sounds fine.

I'm trying to find the article I read that talks about how your brain, once it hears something enough times, will fix it in your head. It happens with timing issues a lot - if you don't go in and edit sloppy fills in a song first thing, you'll end up liking them. Oh, it wasn't an article, it was a video. I recommend watching the whole thing, but if you're lazy start at 5:20 and listen to 6:50.

[wireman957]

Hey Jeff, great work once again. I can't really fault anything technically with this mix. I would like a little more low end with this track though but maybe that is only because I am choosing a more bottom heavy mix. You have manged to get some good stereo spread on the different synths which really opens up the mix. I was hoping you would have bailed on the 80's snare so I could have a reason to give you a 1 but you foiled me there The vox do sound a touch thin but nothing serious and I am sure it was a concious decision. Top marks from me.

Wow! Thanks, Bob. I fought a little with the low end - there was a kind of "beating" in the subs on the bass that was making the choruses sound a little clunky to me so I actually high passed the bass higher than I ever have. To get some punch back I used a very faint auto-wah on the bass during the choruses. And yes, I did thin the vocals quite a bit. I didn't like the way the low mids were interacting with the bass and the left and right vocals so maybe I just took them a little far. Finally, bail on the snare? I'm a man of my word so not a chance (just lucky this was the song to use it on...)

Thanks so much for the kind words!

[bobbybovine]

It's been my experience that once you hear something out of tune enough times, you'll decide it sounds fine.

I'm trying to find the article I read that talks about how your brain, once it hears something enough times, will fix it in your head. It happens with timing issues a lot - if you don't go in and edit sloppy fills in a song first thing, you'll end up liking them. Oh, it wasn't an article, it was a video. I recommend watching the whole thing, but if you're lazy start at 5:20 and listen to 6:50.

Great vid there m24p. I think I may watch ALL of the vids there.

[wireman957]

It's been my experience that once you hear something out of tune enough times, you'll decide it sounds fine.

I'm trying to find the article I read that talks about how your brain, once it hears something enough times, will fix it in your head. It happens with timing issues a lot - if you don't go in and edit sloppy fills in a song first thing, you'll end up liking them. Oh, it wasn't an article, it was a video. I recommend watching the whole thing, but if you're lazy start at 5:20 and listen to 6:50.

Well, I am human, so often I'm as lazy as I can get away with . Not, however for stuff like this. Thanks for the post - I've watched it in its entirety

[thomastx750]

Wow Wireman, another huge professional sounding mix. The textures and spacing you added to the synths is by far the best I've heard on anyones mix. That snare really gave the song more groove, which I know others have been struggling and how to get thing to really groove. With the synths sounding so awesome it seems the vocals almost take a backseat, that's my only criticism. 5 star mix.

[Stan_Halen]

Great mix wireman! I love that bass sound you got, kind of a "Close Encounters of a Landmine" otherworldly mother-ship bigness. The snare works really well also. Vocals shine nicely for me. I even like how you handled the "cowbell" sound, which I removed from mine for the most part because I just couldn't keep it from being a distraction to other elements. Great use of reverb and effects!

[redworks]

just this is so wrong that it is right. i was wondering where i heard a song like this before and then your 80's mix came screeching out and ahh haa. the instruments are sounding great but the voice has a little too much nasal air to it. i noticed that in the original even. the editing and fx that you did to the other vocals are awesome. especially that none 80's one in the chorus at around 2 mins. the synths are tastefully dealt with and the whole mix feels like a good jumpy synth driven song. inspiring mix.

[Jeronimo Mora]

Nice mix !

The vocals are high passed a little too aggressively, giving them a thin character. Backing off the high pass filter would have definitely helped the vocals out here. It sounds like they're almost all high end. Fighting sibilance with a vocal with little low end tends to lend itself to making it sound a bit unnatural and scooped. I've done it way too many times. The effects on the synths were cool. I was really begging for some more low end in the choruses. Nothing wrong with a bright mix, but I would have liked for the choruses to have beat me in the face with sheer, unforgivable power. (I'm exaggerating here a bit, but a little more low end wouldn't have hurt ).

These were probably my only problems with the mix. A bit of a fuller vocal and it would have been a 5 for sure.

[wireman957]

Nice mix !

The vocals are high passed a little too aggressively, giving them a thin character. Backing off the high pass filter would have definitely helped the vocals out here. It sounds like they're almost all high end. Fighting sibilance with a vocal with little low end tends to lend itself to making it sound a bit unnatural and scooped. I've done it way too many times. The effects on the synths were cool. I was really begging for some more low end in the choruses. Nothing wrong with a bright mix, but I would have liked for the choruses to have beat me in the face with sheer, unforgivable power. (I'm exaggerating here a bit, but a little more low end wouldn't have hurt ).

These were probably my only problems with the mix. A bit of a fuller vocal and it would have been a 5 for sure.

Points taken. I did start out with less high pass on the lead vocal but couldn't seem to find that sweet spot where all the vocal tracks "lived in peaceful coexistence with each other" until I thinned it out a bit. I may have gone too far, but I still think it works - especially on car and home stereo systems (oddly, I haven't listened on computer speakers yet...). Thanks for the comments, man. You're always very specific and that's appreciated.

[m24p]

FWIW, I didn't think the vox were too thin.

[wireman957]

FWIW, I didn't think the vox were too thin.

Lol. Thanks!

[Stan_Halen]

I did start out with less high pass on the lead vocal but couldn't seem to find that sweet spot where all the vocal tracks "lived in peaceful coexistence with each other" until I thinned it out a bit.

How did you handle the sibilance issue? You gave me some suggestions, which I tried, but I find that cutting deep and wide enough to affect the sibilance (even with a shelf boost around it) changes the character of the vocals in many cases (maybe this is what Jeronimo is hearing?). In some cases a deep high-Q notch will work, but especially on multiple vocal tracks I haven't had much success trying to De-Ess as a group. Do you treat each vocal track individually? Maybe I'm assuming that all the vocal tracks on this were the same vocalist, so the sibilance would fall in the same range even singing different parts, but maybe the vocal mechanics are so varied between high and low parts that the enunciation is significantly changed and that differentiates the sibilance of each vocal part? [this might be a whole new thread ...?]

[wireman957]

How did you handle the sibilance issue? You gave me some suggestions, which I tried, but I find that cutting deep and wide enough to affect the sibilance (even with a shelf boost around it) changes the character of the vocals in many cases (maybe this is what Jeronimo is hearing?). In some cases a deep high-Q notch will work, but especially on multiple vocal tracks I haven't had much success trying to De-Ess as a group. Do you treat each vocal track individually? Maybe I'm assuming that all the vocal tracks on this were the same vocalist, so the sibilance would fall in the same range even singing different parts, but maybe the vocal mechanics are so varied between high and low parts that the enunciation is significantly changed and that differentiates the sibilance of each vocal part? [this might be a whole new thread ...?]

I'm not at home right now, typing on my phone, and I can't remember exactly, but I know I did treat each vocal separately. A deep, fairly narrow cut around 9k, if memory serves. I did compress the vocal buss as a whole to glue the vox together and it's more than likely I then EQ'd that a little to compensate for anything compression brought out. I'll double check when I get home and if it's different I'll let you know.

[ridgybeatle]

Love what you did with the vocals in the last chorus! Good mix!

[drummer67]

very nice mix,I tend too think just a bit more low end in general.maybe roll back the low cut gust a bit on the vocals other than that top notch mix man.

[wireman957]

Love what you did with the vocals in the last chorus! Good mix!

Thanks, man. Essentially just a long delay set to half-notes. Then automated to echo only the first phrase. I was trying to get the effect of a "round" - row, row, row your boat style ...glad you liked it!

[Janko]

This is so 80's ;-) Great! The Snare is nailed and the lows on the kick make it standing out well in the Chorus. Very heavy Synths, but nicely placed and fitted in the whole 80's colour. First I was missing lows on the Bass, but it works out well. You left it for the BD. The solo is very well worked. Nice distorted space. And the delay on Vox in the final Chorus is very tasty......
Congrats Wireman