hated love _ redworks

[redworks]

ok well i wanted to do this and i wanted to do that. so i end up with a bit of this and that. i have so many misgivings. i have listened to others and there are some really good mixes of this song already. i would love to take what others have done and include them in my mix but i could not seem to change the direction i had already started on. anyway another great learning experience for me. really do enjoy any feedback that you give so even if others have said something please go ahead and say it again. you would be surprised how hearing the same thing from different points of view helps me to understand better how to improve on my mixing.

[willj]

This is a good mix man. I wasnt really swayed by the Eq/ambience on the drums in the beginning. Maybe i found it more distracting than a help, but not a big deal at all. the drums generally have a good sound to them.

The main rythm guitar stays out of the way of the vocal pretty well in the first verse, but there are a couple tiny spots where they fight a bit. later in the song it seems to be a little bit more of a problem, but def not bad. If the guitar and vox sound a little bit alike, then it might be a good idea to pan the guitar as far away from the vox as you are comfortable with. It sounds like the compression is taking over on the guitar a little bit, and might become a lil fatiguing after a couple of songs.

Compression can pull things forward in a mix. It sounds like a few things have been "pulled" to the same place in the mix with your compression strategy. It might be causing the mix to have a little less depth than id like to hear. Imagine where that guitar would be sitting if it were really dark sounding.

In any case this is great work from you man, and your best mix i know of to date. This mix has energy to it, and some nice sounding instruments. i like how you kept the secondary rythm guitar out of the way of the main rythm by making them sound not alike.

It doesnt sound to me like you are stuck at a stand still with your improvements. I think you mentioned that at some point and this mix contradicts that statement. Nice job man!

[redworks]

This is a good mix man. I wasnt really swayed by the Eq/ambience on the drums in the beginning. Maybe i found it more distracting than a help, but not a big deal at all. the drums generally have a good sound to them.

The main rythm guitar stays out of the way of the vocal pretty well in the first verse, but there are a couple tiny spots where they fight a bit. later in the song it seems to be a little bit more of a problem, but def not bad. If the guitar and vox sound a little bit alike, then it might be a good idea to pan the guitar as far away from the vox as you are comfortable with. It sounds like the compression is taking over on the guitar a little bit, and might become a lil fatiguing after a couple of songs.

Compression can pull things forward in a mix. It sounds like a few things have been "pulled" to the same place in the mix with your compression strategy. It might be causing the mix to have a little less depth than id like to hear. Imagine where that guitar would be sitting if it were really dark sounding.

In any case this is great work from you man, and your best mix i know of to date. This mix has energy to it, and some nice sounding instruments. i like how you kept the secondary rythm guitar out of the way of the main rythm by making them sound not alike.

It doesnt sound to me like you are stuck at a stand still with your improvements. I think you mentioned that at some point and this mix contradicts that statement. Nice job man!

thanks willj for the feedback. will definitely be looking at the compression pulling them into the same place and the mix depth. i am glad that you are hearing some improvement in my mixing. i think it is like when you are growing as a youngster you don't really notice the change but then you visit a far away relative and they are like 'oh how you have grown', so it is nice to have a far away mixing relative to tell me in this case.

[willj]

I felt like Lepou was experiencing some of the same problems in that reagard(compression) so there is some more ideas on his thread. Just a quick rundown in my head might look like this.

Bass - frequency dependent compression from 200hz down to keep the low in check and then hit the whole thing again lightly just to whip the whole track into shape.

Electric Guitar - usually no compression unless there is some low end chugging. You can usually hear it swelling up.

Clean electric - usually about 3db of gain reduction.

Acoustic - almost none

Vox - 1 very light dose to make the whole track a bit more uniform. Use some automation too. 1 multiband compressor to shape tone and gain a lil more control...and maybe tame sssss as well.

Drums - all sent to one buss. One light compressor and one light limiter on the drum buss. Copy and send the majority of the kick to the two buss if its dominating the compressor.

See how the approach differs on each instrument? It helps the result differ. Just thinking outloud here. Feel free to take it or leave it.

[fHumble fHingaz]

Hey Red, cool mix! The arrangement tweaks are very tasteful, & they work well.

Will has covered the top end of the mix fairly comprehensively, so the only other thing that I would add is that the drums sound a little strange to me - at first I thought you had done a deliberate lo-fi intro for them... It's a really individual sound, but I'm wondering if it causes a little bit of a frequency imbalance in the low end of the mix. The drums sound like they are lacking in low end "weight" - almost like the close mics are turned right down & all we are hearing is distant mics. That "punch" area around 100-150hz sounds like it is a bit MIA... To my ears, this has the effect of making the bass sound "overblown" & disproportionately loud in the mix (even though it probably is not). An additional perception is that the drums sound a little distant - this may be to do with the ambient treatment you used - maybe just a little less verb on the kit overall, or perhaps some pre-delay may have helped bring it forward a little.

Overall, most of elements in the mix sound well balanced & nicely arranged. Cool stuff!

[JoshERTW]

Love the vibe on this one, that whistle/finger on a wine glass thing adds a unique feel for sure. Tonal choices for different instruments and balance are on the money.

Not sure I agree with the drum sound in the beginning but it seems to work when everything is going strong. I'd like to hear less of the beads in the snare and more of the crack as personal preference, but it kind of works for the ambient feel you've got here, maybe just give the snare bottom it's own reverb to smear it around a little better. The very last guitar line kind of seemed a little bit too "honky-tonk" for lack of a better description, didn't quite fit in with the rest of your mix.

Anyhow, those are all artistic comments, as far as the technical, not much to complain about, I'd have to agree with Will on the compression thing. I discovered the majick of bus compression automation this month - I seriously recommend you try it. There's also a bit of high end harshness at some points, but I think this is due to the compression issues. Maybe a 1dB low shelf cut at like 4-5k would bring it back in line? Hard to say. Pretty solid work here man, good show!

[wireman957]

I really like this mix! You've made it sound different than anything else I've heard this month - a little "unpolished" and proud of it - there's a lot of emotion here!! There's a really cool nasty, dirty, grungy character that I think serves the song well! Reminds me of the garage bands of my youth (who got me into the music biz in the first place I'd have to say) recording really hot into an old tape recorder, or better yet, I feel like I'm standing in front of the open garage door and everything is just cranked. Note: Listening for a third time now, and I keep enjoying it more.

Your bass sound is huge - even though it kind of obscures the kick at times, that adds to the live feel for me (you know, the rich kid with a brand new SVT?). The kick is still there adding punch to the bass, so that's okay with me! The only think that really kind of stuck out to me was that single note guitar part. It was just a tad hot around 2-2.5k and it got a bit abrasive at times. It's another thing that added to the raw garage band appeal for me, though, so maybe I'm all wet Just maybe a little less of those freq's and the balance between that guitar and the rhythm would have been better in my opinion.

Honestly, I think just about everything you did contributes to a unique take on this one and a really fun mix to listen to - good job!

[jerze]

Hello,redworks
By the way your opening statement read I thought this was going to sound like shit.

I like it sounds good! It has that kind of dark sound I think you were trying to capture. I think with adjusting the eq on one of guitars a little differently, losing a little verb on the guitars, vocals... might have opened some space up in the mix
The snare is a little over powering compared to the level of the kick which along with the overheads seem to get lost in chorus. Maybe compression or limiting will check back to see what others say. (I see willj answer my question great post) Bold move taking lead section out kind of fits just not sure. Points for trying nice job

[redworks]

Hey Red, cool mix! The arrangement tweaks are very tasteful, & they work well.

Will has covered the top end of the mix fairly comprehensively, so the only other thing that I would add is that the drums sound a little strange to me - at first I thought you had done a deliberate lo-fi intro for them... It's a really individual sound, but I'm wondering if it causes a little bit of a frequency imbalance in the low end of the mix. The drums sound like they are lacking in low end "weight" - almost like the close mics are turned right down & all we are hearing is distant mics. That "punch" area around 100-150hz sounds like it is a bit MIA... To my ears, this has the effect of making the bass sound "overblown" & disproportionately loud in the mix (even though it probably is not). An additional perception is that the drums sound a little distant - this may be to do with the ambient treatment you used - maybe just a little less verb on the kit overall, or perhaps some pre-delay may have helped bring it forward a little.

Overall, most of elements in the mix sound well balanced & nicely arranged. Cool stuff!

ah good that is very useful to know. the kick drum is a bit of a challenge for me and i worked hard to get it to cut through this time. i probably did take out to much of the punch in the process. as far as the verb on the kit i sent a very little to two verbs. finding the balance is a bit of a shot in the dark at this point. i go to taste but i feel as though my tastes are changing all the time at this point. still developing the ear so thanks a lot for the feedback.

[redworks]

Love the vibe on this one, that whistle/finger on a wine glass thing adds a unique feel for sure. Tonal choices for different instruments and balance are on the money.

Not sure I agree with the drum sound in the beginning but it seems to work when everything is going strong. I'd like to hear less of the beads in the snare and more of the crack as personal preference, but it kind of works for the ambient feel you've got here, maybe just give the snare bottom it's own reverb to smear it around a little better. The very last guitar line kind of seemed a little bit too "honky-tonk" for lack of a better description, didn't quite fit in with the rest of your mix.

Anyhow, those are all artistic comments, as far as the technical, not much to complain about, I'd have to agree with Will on the compression thing. I discovered the majick of bus compression automation this month - I seriously recommend you try it. There's also a bit of high end harshness at some points, but I think this is due to the compression issues. Maybe a 1dB low shelf cut at like 4-5k would bring it back in line? Hard to say. Pretty solid work here man, good show!

yeah i ran the drum bus through sound toys filter plugin because i did not like the full sound to start with. truth is i should have cut out the drums for the first verse altogether because that is what really sounded best. unfortunately i had already set up this path when i discovered it and had decided to make no last minute changes this month. i appreciate the suggestion for bus compression automation. i am still really just learning to hear compression at work so as i hear it more i will be able to use control it better. as far as the guitar fitting you are probably right. thanks a lot for the feedback.

[redworks]

I really like this mix! You've made it sound different than anything else I've heard this month - a little "unpolished" and proud of it - there's a lot of emotion here!! There's a really cool nasty, dirty, grungy character that I think serves the song well! Reminds me of the garage bands of my youth (who got me into the music biz in the first place I'd have to say) recording really hot into an old tape recorder, or better yet, I feel like I'm standing in front of the open garage door and everything is just cranked. Note: Listening for a third time now, and I keep enjoying it more.

Your bass sound is huge - even though it kind of obscures the kick at times, that adds to the live feel for me (you know, the rich kid with a brand new SVT?). The kick is still there adding punch to the bass, so that's okay with me! The only think that really kind of stuck out to me was that single note guitar part. It was just a tad hot around 2-2.5k and it got a bit abrasive at times. It's another thing that added to the raw garage band appeal for me, though, so maybe I'm all wet Just maybe a little less of those freq's and the balance between that guitar and the rhythm would have been better in my opinion.

Honestly, I think just about everything you did contributes to a unique take on this one and a really fun mix to listen to - good job!

thanks wireman i appreciate those words. it is nice to know that some of the emotion is translating. i am so fresh to this mixing thing often it is a case of my lack of skills getting in the way of the song. so if that emotion is starting to translate that means i may have learned a little. thanks as well for the technical advice whether i like it or not those technical problems are getting in the way and the more feedback i get the better i can find the holes in my mixing abilities.

[redworks]

Hello,redworks
By the way your opening statement read I thought this was going to sound like shit.

I like it sounds good! It has that kind of dark sound I think you were trying to capture. I think with adjusting the eq on one of guitars a little differently, losing a little verb on the guitars, vocals... might have opened some space up in the mix
The snare is a little over powering compared to the level of the kick which along with the overheads seem to get lost in chorus. Maybe compression or limiting will check back to see what others say. (I see willj answer my question great post) Bold move taking lead section out kind of fits just not sure. Points for trying nice job

thanks for the feedback. i have been trying a multisend verb technique to 'glue' the mix together and i think am still really learning to hear how that affects the mix and to get the balance right. so your comment is very helpful in giving me perspective. i do tend to like dark in my mixes and a little less space. but getting the balance right is something i am definitely working on. thanks again.

[kakeux]

Hi,

I really like the arrangments and the ideas you thrown in! Delightful!

My only concern is the drums, I feel like they've lost some balls during their processing. By balls, please understand some frequency that make a drum kit to sound full. Hard to tell you where I can feel it's missing something, but I would guess somwhere between 200-600Hz...

I got use to the drums sound after some bars, so it's not ruining the mix. But the next level would be reached with fuller drums.

Cheers!

[redworks]

Hi,

I really like the arrangments and the ideas you thrown in! Delightful!

My only concern is the drums, I feel like they've lost some balls during their processing. By balls, please understand some frequency that make a drum kit to sound full. Hard to tell you where I can feel it's missing something, but I would guess somwhere between 200-600Hz...

I got use to the drums sound after some bars, so it's not ruining the mix. But the next level would be reached with fuller drums.

Cheers!

one of the reasons it grew on you is because i was running it through a filter to begin with. but as has been before drums are a tough thing for me to get right. so i will look at how i can get the balls back into the drums. thanks for the feedback and thanks for sharing the song.

[lucccien]

Hey, nice rockin mix. I like the distortion on the 1st guitar, it blended well with the 2nd guitar, especially since you dialed down the highs on gt2. Maybe I'm spoiled from my own mix but I would have liked to hear the 1st guitar on the right as well. But overall you made some very interesting Beatle-esque panning choices. Besides, my opinion is purely subjective. Really like what you did with the tone of the main electric guitar2, and I also dig what you did with synth1. Width, balance and your mix overall is great. Great work as always!

[redworks]

Hey, nice rockin mix. I like the distortion on the 1st guitar, it blended well with the 2nd guitar, especially since you dialed down the highs on gt2. Maybe I'm spoiled from my own mix but I would have liked to hear the 1st guitar on the right as well. But overall you made some very interesting Beatle-esque panning choices. Besides, my opinion is purely subjective. Really like what you did with the tone of the main electric guitar2, and I also dig what you did with synth1. Width, balance and your mix overall is great. Great work as always!

thanks man. i played around with the idea of running the guitar through both sides but i felt there was enough going on that it did not need that much prominence and fit in well as is. but as you say that may have been the wrong choose so i appreciate the suggestion.

[TopBobSecret]

Redworks,
Nice job, man! I agree with an above comment that maybe "dry out" the effect on the drum where it's mostly solo-ed at the beginning but it works well with the instruments.
There also seemed to be an open channel hissing at the intro that I would expect you would have addressed.
I like how you handled the "more annoying" synth sounds. They seemed almost "spacey" at the end, nice touch!
-TopBob

[redworks]

Redworks,
Nice job, man! I agree with an above comment that maybe "dry out" the effect on the drum where it's mostly solo-ed at the beginning but it works well with the instruments.
There also seemed to be an open channel hissing at the intro that I would expect you would have addressed.
I like how you handled the "more annoying" synth sounds. They seemed almost "spacey" at the end, nice touch!
-TopBob

thanks topbob for the comments. it is nice to read that the time spent on the synth is appreciated. i am not sure about the hiss i will have to go back and listen but more than likely it was as you say an open channel hiss. i did clean up a few tracks that were making noise but then achieved an artifact at the very beginning when i exported that i did not notice until i posted. that is what i get for not doing more testing on the final export. i changed so little since the last export that i just gave it a quick listen and posted.

[Magnolius]

This is a full sounding and fat mix! To me it just sounds a little cramped for space. I would bet every element in the mix sounds perfect in solo It just feels like there isn't enough room for all the elements in the mix... Maybe narrowing the space allowed to each element would make the mix breath more.

[dudermn]

Those are some seriously bitter drums.
They really catch something in the song pretty much over looked.
I herd the singer spit a few times !! How did you do that ?

This sounds like a really good live recording, but with everything turned up a tad to loud.

[redworks]

Those are some seriously bitter drums.
They really catch something in the song pretty much over looked.
I herd the singer spit a few times !! How did you do that ?

This sounds like a really good live recording, but with everything turned up a tad to loud.

i am not sure where you heard him spitting but i am sure it is because he was so mad at me for screwing up his song.

[bobbybovine]

Hey redworks. I like your snare sound, maybe just a touch more body in the 300 or 400 hz range to "beef" it up a bit. I can't really say the same for your kick though . The kick does disappear throughout the track and I think it should match the snare for intelligibility as it is a key component in the groovy feeling of this song. My big issue with your mix though is your choice of effects on the clean guitar and the processing on the what I think is the synths. The guitar reverb is on the ear piercing side, it is all upper mids and they seem very hyped. With the synths the effects you have chosen are giving a whistling effect which I find very distracting. Now with those effects you have chosen the vox are constantly fighting to poke through. A good rule of thumb with this stuff I that I use is if anything is in the same frequency range as the mian vox and is also in the same panning position then I will either eq a "hole" in the effects or tracks to let the vox come through or I will just turn them down a bit more and pan them away from the vox. I think that approach would help a lot with what I am hearing. Good work.

[redworks]

Hey redworks. I like your snare sound, maybe just a touch more body in the 300 or 400 hz range to "beef" it up a bit. I can't really say the same for your kick though . The kick does disappear throughout the track and I think it should match the snare for intelligibility as it is a key component in the groovy feeling of this song. My big issue with your mix though is your choice of effects on the clean guitar and the processing on the what I think is the synths. The guitar reverb is on the ear piercing side, it is all upper mids and they seem very hyped. With the synths the effects you have chosen are giving a whistling effect which I find very distracting. Now with those effects you have chosen the vox are constantly fighting to poke through. A good rule of thumb with this stuff I that I use is if anything is in the same frequency range as the mian vox and is also in the same panning position then I will either eq a "hole" in the effects or tracks to let the vox come through or I will just turn them down a bit more and pan them away from the vox. I think that approach would help a lot with what I am hearing. Good work.

thanks for the comments. i obviously am struggling with drums in general and particularly the kick. i have read up and tried a lot of things but still have yet to put what i have been learning to really good use. i think a big part of it is i still need to develop my ear to hear a good kick sound. will keep working at it, you never know i may just get it right before these contests are all over. as far as the synth i was trying to use that processing to remove the irritation as i find these types of synth just hit me wrong. i guess i need to go a little further but i did want them to poke out every once in a while adding a little more depth. i will fiddle with that some more and see what i can come up.

[bobbybovine]

thanks for the comments. i obviously am struggling with drums in general and particularly the kick. i have read up and tried a lot of things but still have yet to put what i have been learning to really good use. i think a big part of it is i still need to develop my ear to hear a good kick sound. will keep working at it, you never know i may just get it right before these contests are all over. as far as the synth i was trying to use that processing to remove the irritation as i find these types of synth just hit me wrong. i guess i need to go a little further but i did want them to poke out every once in a while adding a little more depth. i will fiddle with that some more and see what i can come up.

I know what you mean with the kick redworks. That can be a difficult thing to get just right. I find that I can have what I think is a killer kick sound in solo then everything comes in and it disappears. So what I started doing even before trying to find a sample I like, is to get a very rough mix of the rhythm that way I know the context it will be in, then start to eq, compress look for samples etc. I found that approach to cut down on the time to get something I really liked.

[Mr.White]

I'm like your whistle syths But for me everything is too much on the middle. I'm like distortions but I'm notice too much distortions on the guitars in your mix.
Peace,
Mr. White