When a forum goes bad...

[EnSkorSang]

This is more of a question aimed at long-time forum members of forum owners (looking at you, boss :P)
I'm often on another forum aimed at songwriters, so a different angle on the same broad topic as this forum. It's a fairly small forum that had a very community feel to it, with a few long-time members that did lots of stuff together (virtually, of course).

Then it got bigger. Older members get upset, saying newbies dont respect the 'rules', newbies get upset at older members 'policing' them, and almost every new thread is a discussion of things going wrong or a witch hunt. If someone dares start a thread about something relevant, they risk being shot down because of 'not taking part'. If someone decides to take a bit of time out and come back, they are accused of not being a team player. Etc Etc. It all seems a bit silly when you write it down.

So is this a teething problem for all forums? What makes a forum a success and what cause it to implode from the inevitable bickering that anonymity invites?

[bobbybovine]

This is more of a question aimed at long-time forum members of forum owners (looking at you, boss :P)
I'm often on another forum aimed at songwriters, so a different angle on the same broad topic as this forum. It's a fairly small forum that had a very community feel to it, with a few long-time members that did lots of stuff together (virtually, of course).

Then it got bigger. Older members get upset, saying newbies dont respect the 'rules', newbies get upset at older members 'policing' them, and almost every new thread is a discussion of things going wrong or a witch hunt. If someone dares start a thread about something relevant, they risk being shot down because of 'not taking part'. If someone decides to take a bit of time out and come back, they are accused of not being a team player. Etc Etc. It all seems a bit silly when you write it down.

So is this a teething problem for all forums? What makes a forum a success and what cause it to implode from the inevitable bickering that anonymity invites?

I can't answer that question but I hope it doesn't happen here. Personally I think the DIY approach to most stuff on this forum will prevent that from happening. What you speak of happening on the other forum sounds like a lack of respect. I definitely don't get that feeling here, there seems to be a tremendous amount of respect overall and a willingness to help which of course creates the snowball effect of you get what you give. It is ultimately up to the long time members and the moderators to ensure that that type of environment is cultivated.

[bozmillar]

I think what I like about this forum is that there is no ranking. There are people who have more posts than others, but that's about it. The fact that everyone can and is equally respected/disrespected I think breaks down the whole superiority thing.

[EnSkorSang]

I dont think it does happen here at all. Not that I know of, or not to any extent. How does that happen? Sounds dumb to ask it, but you can turn it on it's head and say, well these long-time members feel like they don't get the respect they should. Should they even get any respect?
As a long-time member, I actually irritated other members by suggesting they just ignore people that dont follow the guidelines/rules etc. It really is a weird thing going on over there

Im sure that most newbies to a forum are to eager to get posting than to read through all the boring guidelines. Especially when there is a chance to receive reviews or comments on your work (which covers just about every forum). Im sure I posted before reading first

Seems that a forum's success, or it's navigation through early days to being a long-standing...thing can often rest on the attitudes of a surprisingly small number of members?

[EnSkorSang]

I think what I like about this forum is that there is no ranking. There are people who have more posts than others, but that's about it. The fact that everyone can and is equally respected/disrespected I think breaks down the whole superiority thing.

Technically, there is no ranking on the other forum. Even less than here as there isn't a...what-do-you-call-it below the screen names like here. But somehow people view themselves as superior or something. I dunno. We have a forum here that has a large membership and deals with audio engineers...some of the most anal, pedantic group of people in the world who are able to force across pretty much any point based on vague subjective musical qualities (Only kidding, but it is a potentially volatile group!). BUT, I haven't seen much moronic arguing here. And of the arguing I have seen, I probably caused some of it .
Yet over there, with a smaller membership, less sub-forums...generally what seems like an easier forum to manage, it's pretty crazy.
I dont know if it is due to a few 'old' members who believe they should be privileged, or have built up the egos from too many ass-kissing reviews, or that there is a lack of respect from new members.
And I dont know why some forums manage to bypass this problem, or overcome it...


It's an interesting facet of the false life I immerse myself in on the interwebs

[garageband]

It's an interesting facet of the false life I immerse myself in on the interwebs

This is what it is. It's such a new and artificial thing that you can hardly blame folks for not knowing how to act. As long as everyone remembers those are real people, things will be better.

[Jeronimo Mora]

How long has thatch forum been around? I think this one is in its 6th or 7th year. May have something to do with it? Idk.

[bobbybovine]

Im sure that most newbies to a forum are to eager to get posting than to read through all the boring guidelines. Especially when there is a chance to receive reviews or comments on your work (which covers just about every forum). Im sure I posted before reading first

There is a difference between being disrespectful and telling these newbs they are losers and not answer their questions when this happens, and politely directing them to the appropriate sub-forum, thread or suggesting they use the search function. I see the later done here ALL the time!! As the saying goes, it only takes a few bad apples!!

[kakeux]

This is the only forum I spent so much time on. In fact I tried once on another forum not related to music, after some month I stopped. It was a too small community with too big ideas.

Here, the number of menbers is quite important. So the communautarism is probably harder to get established. And as long as people will keep talking to each others and not just "internet writing", there will be no problem.

[brandondrury]

I think about this stuff constantly. I'm always looking for the right way to steer the ship. I'm not right often.

I will say that actively running a site is an enormous amount of work and the financial rewards vary. In other words, it's got to be a labor of love. For the amount of work I put into this site I could be an MD now and work about the same....but I'd have a Porsche. (Yippie! ...with sarcasm) I would have the dream gig right now if I could figure how not to be stressed out every f'ing second of every day. I doubt if too many people LOVE running a website and that's where things go to shit.

To be honest, Jules from Gearslutz was on Pensado's Place a while back. I had a hard time watching it. That guy's site is doing well in terms of numbers and activity, but what a cesspool. There is good info, but man you have to dig through it. Maybe he's on to something. Not sure. I think he just got there first.

BUT, I haven't seen much moronic arguing here.

I've had to send quite a few PMs to quite a few valued members who I value HIGHLY to steer them in away from rocky shores. I've pissed people off by being too picky about the language used. Some I have ran off.

When a thread goes to shit (and many have) I encourage my mods to get rid of it. I don't see a difference "You f'ing homo!" talk and a jewelry store with a broken window. Neither are acceptable. When the fights move to PMs (which is where I prefer these fights to occur) and I'm asked to step in it's an even bigger mess.

[garageband]

Jules from Gearslutz ... I think he just got there first.

I think the primary difference is "Gear" vs. "Recording". A focus on gear itself is fetishisement of objects and their ownership. It's largely divorced from the process of recording. It's very materialistic and becomes competitive very easily. It's really a lot harder to be selfishly competitive about music and recording.

[Beat Poet]

The scope is too wide on Gearslutz for there to be a sense of equality (by that I mean, it caters for bedroom recorders right up to established pros). Cliques are the death of any forum for me though. facepalm.gif

[willj]

I love this thread!

It took me a looong time to grasp what respect was, and ever since the day when i finally got it, it has been a huge factor in every thing i do. ( a good bloody mouth will learn ya quick)

There are so many ways to disrespect people. To me, blatantly ignoring a person is every bit as bad as telling them fuck you. Thats common place on bigger forums. (ignoring) Thats why i lasted all of about 100 posts elsewhere. On a smaller scale you can't do that. How would it be perceived if this were only a two man deal? Not likely, but my point is the less the numbers, the more of an issue an action like that is.


Hell going thru and liking everybodys post but one guys is grounds for a punch in the mouth. Just because you called him an asshole in a roundabout way doesnt make it ok or less disrespectful than fuck you.

What makes a forum a success

Atmosphere is some.

I think THIS forum is succesful 99.033% because of Brandon IMHO.

I think you have to be lucky enough to have members that think "OK, what can i do to help somebody?" as opposed to
"What do i get?"

[fHumble fHingaz]

I think the primary difference is "Gear" vs. "Recording". A focus on gear itself is fetishisement of objects and their ownership. It's largely divorced from the process of recording. It's very materialistic and becomes competitive very easily. It's really a lot harder to be selfishly competitive about music and recording.

Quite sage & profound, that one GB...

I once heard it said that "small minds talk about people, slightly larger minds talk about things, but BIG minds talk about ideas"... when the focus is on things (& the ownership of such), it doesn't take long to deteriorate into a discussion about the owners of those things - people... & you're back to small minds again.

[EnSkorSang]

GB, you have a point about gearslutz...but that is kind of the other extreme. An even bigger forum, that is soo big it doesnt matter there is soo much crap all over it. It's only use is really as some kind of obscure gear wikipedia...sometimes.

Brandon, I think you mentioned something that might highlight the difference between this place and the song writing forum. You mentioned having to PM valued members to remind them of the rules. I get the feeling that the owner of the other forum is unwilling to do this.
Perhaps the issue started as newer members not following guidelines, but a quick look at recent topics shows that most of the bad blood is from older members with a false sense of worth, taking it upon themselves to police the forum.
Instead of reminding them of the rules, the owner started a thread asking how he could improve the place to suit them.

I guess that a large part of it is, in a way, treating your own forum a bit like a company that you are in charge of. No matter how much you like some members, or converse with them, you still need to be able to take a step back and exert some authority to keep the forum in the image you want it

[shackman]

Quite sage & profound, that one GB...

As a senior member, I have to disagree (politely, of course.) GB has NEVER said anything sage OR profound on here. He just lucks out on stringing words together - the right words, the right order.

(This humorous interlude was brought to you by one of those "valued" members the boss has to constantly pull back from "rocky shores".

[EnSkorSang]

As a senior member, I have to disagree (politely, of course.) GB has NEVER said anything sage OR profound on here. He just lucks out on stringing words together - the right words, the right order.

(This humorous interlude was brought to you by one of those "valued" members the boss has to constantly pull back from "rocky shores".

Whether something is sage and profound depends not upon the perceived luck of stringing words together, but what these strung together words mean
Actually, whether something is sage depends on your herbology skills. Hurr hurr.

[Dahla]

I think the primary difference is "Gear" vs. "Recording". A focus on gear itself is fetishisement of objects and their ownership. It's largely divorced from the process of recording. It's very materialistic and becomes competitive very easily. It's really a lot harder to be selfishly competitive about music and recording.

+1

Well said!

[bobbybovine]

Quite sage & profound, that one GB...

I once heard it said that "small minds talk about people, slightly larger minds talk about things, but BIG minds talk about ideas"... when the focus is on things (& the ownership of such), it doesn't take long to deteriorate into a discussion about the owners of those things - people... & you're back to small minds again.

I love that quote fHumble, that was from Elanor Roosevelt. And proves to be true.

[fHumble fHingaz]

I love that quote fHumble, that was from Elanor Roosevelt. And proves to be true.

Ah, that's who it was. Thanks Bob!

[bobbybovine]

Ah, that's who it was. Thanks Bob!

Your quite welcome, and if you want proof of that quote just watch some Jerry Springer! Guess what they are talking about?

[garageband]

herbology skills

See, the problem with your British pronunciation is that it sounds like you are studying famous Herberts. There are odder ways to pass the time, I suppose.

[shackman]

See, the problem with your British pronunciation is that it sounds like you are studying famous Herberts. There are odder ways to pass the time, I suppose.

I agree. But the problem with your American pronunciation is that you drop the "H" making it "'erbology". Isn't language AMAZING!

[Stan_Halen]

Isn't language AMAZING!

I'm (h)onored by your (h)onesty, but doesn't American and British English come from the same source? I think we can thank the French (roots of Old English) for those silent H's. Honestly.

[bobbybovine]

I'm (h)onored by your (h)onesty, but doesn't American and British English come from the same source? I think we can thank the French (roots of Old English) for those silent H's. Honestly.

Don't get me going on those silent H's. My family is mostly from Newfoundland where at some point when speaking they decided to stop putting H's when ever a word starts with one, and then adding a H whenever a word starts with a vowel! ex. Hafter choking hon han happle, hi ad to go to da ospital me son!