Rights vs Goods

[brandondrury]

I've been thinking about our modern era of politics and such. The issue of Health Care Reform is a hot topic. It's got me thinking a little deeper.

What are our rights? In other words, what are we entitled to?

Natural law says we are entitled to:

• Life
• Liberty
• Pursuit of Happiness

Those sound pretty good.

I come from the school of thought that pretty much nothing past that is a right. I don't think people are entitled to:

• food
• beds
• cars
• houses
• Ipods
• internet connection
• Cell phones
• sexual relations
• mic preamps
• etc

I think if people want this stuff, they have to go out and earn it. (We'll rule out people who are incapable of work for this study.) In other words, I don't feel you should automatically get these things just because you alive. Lazy asses don't automatically get these. You shouldn't have to pay for my internet connection. On the other hand, a person who wants to live on Ramon noodles can put his cash into mic preamps, for example.

The fun one, of course, is health care. After considerable thought, I've decided that health care is not a right. It's a product / service. When a person needs it, it's a pretty damn awesome product. I recommend everyone partaking in health care when necessary, but I also recommend everyone getting an internet connection. That, too, is a luxury.

Anyway, I was just curious if all of you considered health care to be a fundamental right or if there were other fundamental rights besides life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Brandon

[fortyseven]

Over here (South Africa) basic health care is considered a right and is free to anyone under the age of 16.

[richiebee]

Healthcare is free here in Canada, and last time I was in England, it was free there too.

I'm curious - can you get emergency legal represenation in the US without charge?

IMO no one should ever die because they can't afford healthcare. Food is kind of up there too. But presumably people on welfare choose what to spend their money on.

Free internet... now that's another thing altogether.

[jagcmos]

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. All of those rights are gone if you die because you cannot afford medical care.

[jagcmos]

Originally Posted by richiebee

I'm curious - can you get emergency legal represenation in the US without charge?

You can get a court appointed lawyer if you are charged with a crime.

[Tony Ramone]

I keep seeing riled up Americans on TV (well, mostly the Daily Show) roaring about how this Health Care reform is the worst kind of socialism and it makes me think why are Americans so afraid of socialism? Is it just that it's been bred into you so much over the last couple of generations that you can't possibly step outside of your box for a moment and look at all the benefits? For example not having to pay ridiculously high fees if you need to take up space on a hospital bed for one night (I heard once that in the US it costs something like €1000 dollars a night?!?! Can this be true?..), or getting a helping hand from the government if you happen to be out of work for a few weeks or months (I don't agree with paying welfare to people who refuse to work and are content to live in the squalor that their dole affords them)?
It also makes me wonder, if your taxes aren't paying for these rights/services, then where is the money going? Are you happy about the fact that, where you could be paying money into a fund that could pay for any hospital expenses you may incur some time, instead it goes into more weapons for an already insanely overarmed army?
Maybe we just have different mindsets...

[jagcmos]

A lot of Americans are scared to death of of socialism, because their only point of reference is the old USSR.

We have Rush and Glenn Beck on the airwaves telling anyone who will listen that it's their god given right be be rich and if someone else is too lazy to become rich, then to hell with them.

We have megachurches who preach to millions that after god, the most important thing is the almighty dollar.

It is quite a sad affair...

[garageband]

I've decided that health care is not a right. It's a product / service. When a person needs it, it's a pretty damn awesome product.

Characterizing the debate in terms of "rights" is wrong (see what I did there?). I would say that health care should fall into the category of services appropriately provided for in common because of the wider societal benefit provided.

Some things that now fit in this category:
Military defense
Public health
Public roads
Interstate highway system
Municipal parks
National Parks
Inland navigable waterways
Airports
Airport Security
Dams
Bridges
Water utilities
Sewer utilites


These are government-created entities that, by their existence, provide a wider good to all citizens. It doesn't take too much imagination to see have health care (not health insurance - exclusively unrelated) is a benefit to society.

[TonyB]

Originally Posted by garageband

These are government-created entities that, by their existence, provide a wider good to all citizens. It doesn't take too much imagination to see have health care (not health insurance - exclusively unrelated) is a benefit to society.

Agreed. but it all assumes we have a trusting government or a government we can trust to ensure the money is going where it's supposed to and not for private airports for senators and other personal pet projects.

Where's the other 90% of the stimulus money? Only 10% has been spent and Congress wants another shot of stimulus (Stimulus 2).

[garageband]

I heard once that in the US it costs something like €1000 dollars a night?!?! Can this be true?..

You sound surprised. Sad to say, yes.

Quick "just-the-facts" personal story. My son had a bicycle accident in town. Landed on his helmeted head and was unconscious. A ambulance was called. He was transported 15 miles to the hospital. He was examined and found after three MRIs to have a minor concussion. While to doctors wanted to keep him overnight, we went ahead and brought him home.

The bill? Just under $13,000.

Can our family afford health insurance? It's $1,300 a month for the six of us young very healthy people.