New Org Champions Dynamic Range Over Loudness

[Tom Dennehy]

Turn Me Up!™ is a non-profit music industry organization campaigning to give artists back the choice to release more dynamic records. Check out their manifesto and a good survey of news articles regarding music dynamics.

For me, the most compelling reason to get behind it is summed up in this quote:

"We're currently considering a measurement that will be precise, scientific, and 100% repeatable. It will not be a subjective or interpretative measurement in any way."

Math is uniquely impervious to opinion.

Cheers,
Tom

[JayGee]

Is something stopping artists from making more dynamic recordings ?

I agree with the sentiment, and efforts behind this organization, but the wording on the website almost makes it seem like artists
have no choice but to make a slammed recording.

[brandondrury]

Why the hell are you posting this in a recording forum? That probably came off a little mean. Let me add a smiley to lighten the mood.

In all seriousness...

1) The issue with dynamics is not an engineer problem. It's a problem with the customer....if it's a problem at all. So why aren't you educating the consumer? Remix LMFAO and Taylor Swift both ways and let the public hear them and decide for themselves. I already know the answer. I've done these little experiments.

2) I had a band who complained a mix was too dynamic the other day. I'm not sure anyone who thinks they likes dynamics remotely likes dynamics. Generally speaking, 4dB RMS swings seem to be the most you can get away with. Even with -4dB RMS (TT Loudness Meter) choruses, I can make a mix too dynamic.

3) A person listening to music for fun on computer speakers or ear buds won't notice any benefit from more dynamics in terms of emotions. They will notice the pain in the ass of having to turn verses up and choruses down.

4) The highest state of music is one where intense emotion is involved. One facet of that is being full-blown sucked into "bumpin" at a wedding and forgetting every single one of your problems and just dancing your ass off...even if you can't dance. The other one that comes to mind is the song you pick for the funeral slideshow when your buddy dies. Why we are wasting our time talking about a little issue that makes engineers take an extra hour on a mix when we should be figuring out how to make the highest state of music is frustrating to me.

the wording on the website almost makes it seem like artists
have no choice but to make a slammed recording.

1) Real artists do whatever the hell they want.....whatever that means.
2) I'm going with the same loudness as the most popular songs INDEFINITELY until the marketplace demands lower RMS recordings. I'd be shocked to see this in my life time.

Brandon

[bozmillar]

I like the idea, but basically the only thing it can do is spread awareness. there aren't that many physical ways to remedy the situation that haven't already been implemented. iTunes has its sound check thing, and people hate it. To me, that one check box solves the problem almost completely. There are still minor issues with it, but for the most part, it bridges the loudness gap, making it feasible for people to make recordings as loud or as quiet as they want. The only way I see to further ingrain this is to put it as a standard in ever media player.

[garageband]

I like the idea, but basically the only thing it can do is spread awareness. there aren't that many physical ways to remedy the situation that haven't already been implemented. iTunes has its sound check thing, and people hate it. To me, that one check box solves the problem almost completely. There are still minor issues with it, but for the most part, it bridges the loudness gap, making it feasible for people to make recordings as loud or as quiet as they want. The only way I see to further ingrain this is to put it as a standard in ever media player.

Right. The most effective solution is to lobby the device manufactures and show them how much more satisfying a listening experience their customers could have with the addition of this small bit of technology. Typing stuff here (and elsewhere) directed toward musicians is preaching to the choir. It's also easier to more dynamic records.

[m24p]

Turn Me Up is not a new org, but it IS (to my knowledge) making an effort to educate customers.

[shackman]

MP is right. Turn It Up is at least five years up and running. READ the web site. It says so.

[nickthefish]

This is a tough area to work in. A Slayer song should be louder than a jazz song, but I also like jazz. On one hand, it would be nice when moving from one song to another, the volume remained relatively the same, but on the other hand, metal should be louder than jazz.
Many music consumers like more than one type of music, so what happens is that the artist and label try to remedy the discrepancies in volume at the expense of the inherent differences in the sytlistic volume of certain music.
There is no right answer.

[shackman]

This is a tough area to work in. A Slayer song should be louder than a jazz song, but I also like jazz. On one hand, it would be nice when moving from one song to another, the volume remained relatively the same, but on the other hand, metal should be louder than jazz.
Many music consumers like more than one type of music, so what happens is that the artist and label try to remedy the discrepancies in volume at the expense of the inherent differences in the sytlistic volume of certain music.
There is no right answer.

WHY. For eff's sake WHY should it "Be Louder". It will "BE LOUDER" if the listener wants it to be. It may be that the 95 year old Jazz fan doesn't want the SLAYER song playing loud. That's why those clever folks who made his radiogram, his stereo, his hi fi, his radio, his I phone, his MP3 player GAVE HIM A VOLUME CONTROL!

[brandondrury]

metal should be louder than jazz.

I had to think about this a second.

If coming from that "emulating a live experience" perspective than I'd imagine metal is going to be WAY louder than jazz. However, when I'm just listening to music, the practicality of not having to stop what I'm doing to adjust the volume knob is something I'd pay for. Even worse, when I've listened to something soft, I don't want something 30dB louder blowing my earbuds out of my ears.

I think a good correlary here is Nirvana In Utero and Nirvana Unplugged. Should these be a different volume? I say definitely not. I should be able to bounce between songs on either album without issue. In Utero will definitely sound more "abrasive" (as it's intended) while the unplugged will sound "softer" but the levels between them shouldn't be significant.

I tend to drift to the practical side these days. It's no fun to not hear the verse over engine noise. Mixerman said you get 4dB RMS swing in your mixes. That isn't much. I tried breaking his rule and the clients hated what I call an ACTUAL dynamic mix. -10dB RMS And "Unnaturally", Excessive Dynamics

iTunes has its sound check thing, and people hate it. To me, that one check box solves the problem almost completely.

Is that a compressor? I'm not familiar with it.

It may be that the 95 year old Jazz fan doesn't want the SLAYER song playing loud.

I want the statistics for how many people born before the depression have "Angel Of Death" on their ipod.

[bozmillar]

Is that a compressor? I'm not familiar with it.

Nope. All it does is scan the song to figure out how loud it is and adjusts the playback volume accordingly. It's a static volume change for the whole song. It's not perfect, and sometimes loud songs sound quieter than soft songs, but it's far better than being blasted by a loud song after a quiet one. I think a few more options (applying the gain to the entire album instead of song by song, slightly better algorithm) would solve the loudness wars completely if it became a standard feature in every player.

[na118]

It's a static volume change for the whole song. It's not perfect, and sometimes loud songs sound quieter than soft songs, but it's far better than being blasted by a loud song after a quiet one.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I rememberthe intro to Weezer's "Perfect Situation" almost defeaning me whenever I had it on a mix CD or something since it was so much louder in relation to the other tracks. Now that it's on my computer there's not a significant loudness difference between it and a CCR live album. I always wondered if there was an auto gain adjustment thing in iTunes, now I know, thanks!

[nickthefish]

WHY. For eff's sake WHY should it "Be Louder". It will "BE LOUDER" if the listener wants it to be. It may be that the 95 year old Jazz fan doesn't want the SLAYER song playing loud. That's why those clever folks who made his radiogram, his stereo, his hi fi, his radio, his I phone, his MP3 player GAVE HIM A VOLUME CONTROL!

I am talking from an aesthetic perspective. Live heavy metal should be louder than jazz. Even on a recording, heavy metal is more likely to have a higher RMS volume than jazz. It should sound and generally be louder. Is it difficult to listen to two different styles with different RMS values, yes it is, but I think stylistically that metal should bash you over the head and jazz shouldn't, at least not in the same way. Again, there are compromises made so that albums (digitally downloaded illegal copies is more like it) sound relatively "commercially" produced, i.e. volume wars, where even smooth jazz is "Ultramaximizerized" to be super loud. 'Tis the was it is though.

[shackman]

For just one moment everyone, forget RMS, dbs, flickering meters and flashing lights.

Now consider this. What IS it that makes you percieve a full Orchestra playing on a CD to be LOUD in one passage and softer when a solo clarinet plays with gentle strings behind it?

Part of it is the SAME thing as on a heavy metal song compared to a jazz song.

Work it out.~

Everyone is so hung up on RM<S dbs meters and compressors that NOBODY LISTENS TO THE MUSIC! (

(Yes, I shouted so I'd be heard above the noise floor in this place".

[Convectuoso]

RE: Jazz vs Metal

I don't care what is louder than each other on a meter.

I care about how loud I can turn the thing up without my ears dying.

And how long I can listen to it without getting ear fatigue.