The Great Union Battle

[brandondrury]

I cleaned this thread up and sent out some "let's play nice" emails. I have my trigger finger on the ban button and this time I'll just ban by IP address. Enough said.

I get a pay raise of $1 a year every year for the last 15 years.

This doesn't sit well with me. I know it's a common view that a person should get a raise for every year with the company. Getting an automatic $2k per year sounds nice, but what about the years you add $5,000 in productivity for the company? What about the people that were less productive this year than they were 5 years ago?

If you assume a big, rich corporation has unlimited funds this raise thing makes more sense. When you take the approach that the company is always in a kill or be killed capitalist situation, it's harder to understand. (It's easier for me to understand the latter because I've been doing it full time for 7 years).

I know it's always a tough gauge of how productive a person is. However, it puts companies into a major bind when they have 10,000 employees who are producing less when each one expects an extra $2k this year.

There is no perfect solution.

That is an ignorant, ill-informed comment. I am incandescent with rage but it doesn't merit arguing with. I'd just invite you consider HOW the "minimum wage" came to be. Because without unions, there would still be slave labour, and it would have it's home in the great old US of A.

I got a little wound up on this one. I'll edit my original post. My apologies to those who I've offended. I definitely crossed the line on that one.

However, it's not an ill-informed post. I've read quite a few books on the topic. There is always a balance between a nation of slaves and a nation of people who collapse an empire with inefficiency.

Avoiding the slavery part is why we needed unions during the Industrial revolution. Big business was exploiting the masses to the point that the masses couldn't get a break. That shouldn't happen and I'm glad unions stepped in to balance out the power a bit.

On the other side of the coin, there are high school educated people who push a button every 5 minutes that make $140,000 per year here in the states. It's way more common than people realize. $40-70 per hour for unskilled labor is atrociously unfair when a person hasn't produced that amount of value. The end result is US car companies have cut corners in quality so they can remain semi-competitive.

When I bought my Honda in 1997 there were 1997 Chevy Cavaliers everywhere. Now my Honda is still truckin' but you just don't see '97 Cavaliers EVER. They don't run. It was an inferior product then and the Chevy Cobalt or similar offerings from Ford and Dodge are the same. 12 years from now cars that didn't suffer from extremely overinflated labor costs will be dominating the road.

When too many people get together and gang up on a company they bog it down and make it uncompetitive. If the employees are pulling their weight, no harm done. Companies who avoid the unions avoid the unnecessary labor fee and therefor can charge a lower fee for their products and/or put out a better product out there.

This union business makes more sense when thinking on a macro scale. If ALL the companies didn't pay well then ALL the employees would have no recourse from slavery. However, this isn't how the world really works. If you don't feel you are getting paid appropriately, you put in your 2 week and go to a company that values your services. For the unskilled worker making $70/hr he may have to go down to $7 an hour because he may not provide enough value to the next company. I think it's fair to say that person is a bully and has abused the system.

I think excessive worrying about the less productive people is bringing the entire system down slowly. The collapse of the sub prime loans is considered by many to the the trigger for our current economic mess. There is a long term solution, but it requires extreme scientific innovation that results in essentially free food and free energy so that everyone who wishes can basically do nothing. Until then a system must be in place that rewards hard work and succeed but punishes those who fail.

[shackman]

Where is it written, my good friend Brandon, that unions demand annual pay rises. AT least three of the unions with workers in some ofn the UKs biggest employers are offering that their staff take a pay cut. That's to help big business find it's way out of recession.
I'll accpet that you are not ill informed. You are, however, illustrating tunnel vision.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Avoiding the slavery part is why we needed unions during the Industrial revolution. Big business was exploiting the masses to the point that the masses couldn't get a break.

That - and the remainder of your post, explains your view brilliantly. You don't believe ANYONE is now exploited by big business. If big business says you are only worth $1 a day, that's what you HAVE TO TAKE. That's while the big bhsinessman pockets the remaining 59$ for himself.

It is niave to think that all unions are good (and I don't) , but you demonstrate that you believe big business is perfect, that it doesn't exploit people and that some people don't need representation from unions to fight their corner.

Roll the plan out, Brandon. Cancell all futuyre elections in the USA. You - one of the plebescite - do not need representation. You KNOW that government will do the job right, tax you fairly, spend money wisely.

ARGHHHHH

[jagcmos]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

I think excessive worrying about the less productive people is bringing the entire system down slowly. The collapse of the sub prime loans is considered by many to the the trigger for our current economic mess. There is a long term solution, but it requires extreme scientific innovation that results in essentially free food and free energy so that everyone who wishes can basically do nothing. Until then a system must be in place that rewards hard work and succeed but punishes those who fail.

This sums up a Libertarian mindset.
By the books with no compassion and empathy.

[shackman]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Until then a system must be in place that rewards hard work and succeed but punishes those who fail.

Man: I'm keeping this as nice as I can:

You mean: I'm all right jack, screw you you lazy bastard.

And if you happen to be unable to work any harder than you do, for WHATEVER reason - dyslexia, or disability or ME (no, you won't believe that exists) - then you'll just have to starev and rot.

Brandon: Ghengis Khan would be proud of you but for one thing: he FED people who needed food.

[willjrockstar]

Listen, Ive been a member of the bricklayers union for 15 years.

Somethings i agree with and somethings i dont. I know that without my union I wouldnt make the wage that i do. And thats probably all thats important to me.

Believe me, there is nothing i hate worse than seeing 30 highway workers stand around touching themselves EVERY time i pass,, digging up the same section of higway every year with no just cause. Or OH yeah IF WE DONT USE THE MONEY WE'll LOOSE IT. Paaaalease I Live this situation in what seems to be its worst case.

But this isnt where my beef is, My initial thoughts were, Hey it could be great to be a part of this musicians union. Maybe they suggest me if somebody came in saying hey i need a guitar player or i need a demo recorded.

I think im going to start MY OWN union and call it Union of Indepent Musical Contractors.

[garageband]

I'm always amused by people with no personal contact or experience with labor unions feel qualified to comment on their value and costs to workers.

[willjrockstar]

Originally Posted by garageband

I'm always amused by people with no personal contact or experience with labor unions feel qualified to comment on their value and costs to workers.

Are those people kinda like trolls or how would you classify them.

If this puts you on the spot too much, my bad.

[garageband]

Originally Posted by willjrockstar

Are those people kinda like trolls or how would you classify them.

If this puts you on the spot too much, my bad.

Not as much as you might think. I would say it's reflective of the blogification of society: The notion that no matter how half-baked, poorly conceived or ill-informed someone's opinion on a subject may be, it has merit because it is typed into a computer, therefore "appears in print": granting it undeserved validity.

[shackman]

Originally Posted by garageband

I'm always amused by people with no personal contact or experience with labor unions feel qualified to comment on their value and costs to workers.

You'd better NOT be referringh to me. I was a member of the union involved in the longest Journalist's strike in UK Newspaper history. Nine months with no pay and all that went with it to make sure a huge company didn't screw us all to the floor.

[willjrockstar]

Cmon shack, You know GB thinks youre the shizzle.