Does France Really Hate The US?

[adilici]

First off, I'm not French, I'm Romanian, but I have a pretty good idea of what europeans in general think of the US and it's inhabitants.

Secondly, to claim that the US saved France from the nazis is a bit much. Actually it's way too much. I'm not putting down the american contribution in WW2, but what american movies and documentaries fail to show is that the british took pretty much all the beating on the western front and ran the germans ragged until the US (in no case alone) came and delivered the final blow. By the time the attack at Normandie happened, the germans were already weak, and the US didn't have much to do with it (except for supplying equipment and the odd pilot).

This may be one of the reasons europeans might not like America that much. Because in all the movies and documentaries produced in the US (which means most of them) "the allies" are presented as dimwitted cannon meat, while the american soldiers are always the heroes. Which, I must repeat, is not true in any sense.

Another view on americans in Europe is that they are fat and stupid, probably mostly due to the serious weight problem the US is facing and, again, the way americans are portrayed in modern movies.

Negative things often asociated with americans are hypocrisy, decadence and the lack of moral values. These probably due to your strange policies. For example, you are big on the fight against racism so big that now you have a problem with affirmative action, and yet you constantly find a race to "hate", for lack of a better word, lately the arabs.

I'm not going to pronounce myself on these views, but they are widely spread. Either way, no American will ever be hated in Europe just for being American, maybe only if he/she fits the stereotype a little too well.

In regard to Michael Moore, most of his documentaries are grossly exagerated, but they do present a bit of truth. Unfortunately, he's looking to shock, and he can't do that with just factual data.

Anyway, there is one positive aspect that even Europeans agree upon, and that is that the US had the most significant contribution in the world's great modern music, closely followed by the UK. Unfortunately, the US also almost single handedly destroyed that musical revolution by turning it into a business and subsequently a kitsch culture, or as a great american movie ("Almost Famous") called it, an "industry of cool".

To close, a great british stand up comedian called Eddie Izzard said in one of his shows:
"If you're american and you come to visit Europe, first of all say you're Canadian, that helps!"
Not exactly true, but i thought it would be close to the point.

[brandondrury]

What is it that you have been taught to hate France?

Not sure. It's just a general "they suck" kind of thing. There is nothing logical about it, but it comes up often in American culture.

Is it that they are our allies and they did not support us in the Iraq War- The whole 'Freedom Fries' thing?

That's a ridiculous reason for anyone who can read. We threw that whole "ally-no-matter-what" thing in the trash with Suez Canal fiasco in 1956. Eisenhower thought that what Britian and France were up to was wrong and said "screw 'em" regardless of ally status. I can't see how it was any different for France.

Brandon

[Whammo]

Yeah, the 'Suez Crisis' was the start of a wave of middle east nationalisations. First the Suez Canal, then all the oil fields.
Those bad old Europeans holding those simple, trusting Persians and Arabs to their contracts despite the Soviet boogie man.
Anyway, as far as the animosity toward France, if there is nothing logical to it, then maybe it's time to give it up?
We don't have big teeth or claws so our only survival tool is our intellect. I reckon those vague feelings we have inspire us to use that intellect. You seem to be doing so, so good on ya.

[brandondrury]

british took pretty much all the beating on the western front

You are sensationalizing this. "Pretty much all" correlates to about 90%. Maybe your "pretty much all" correlates to 40% or something. You'll have to clear that one up.

According to World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The US had 416,000 casualties compared to Britians 382,000. Of course, this is tricky because Britian declared war on Sept 3, 1939 or so. The US didn't declare war until a day after Pearl Harbor over two years later. The British also got mauled at Dunkirk long before America was involved. The US faced heavy casualties in the Pacific too, so who really knows.

With that said, you are not painting an accurate picture. I'm reading Citizen Soldier's by Stephen Ambrose. It certainly doesn't feel like pro American propaganda in the slightest bit.

until the US (in no case alone) came and delivered the final blow.

Uhh. Russia delivered the final blow. The Americans were guarding the Czech mountains to avoid guerilla warfare with the Nazis.

By the time the attack at Normandy happened, the germans were already weak, and the US didn't have much to do with it (except for supplying equipment and the odd pilot).

The Germans were not at full strength, but to call them weak is flat out wrong. The Russians lost 100,000 soldiers taking Berlin alone and that was 11 months after D-Day.

To say the US didn't have much to do with it is ridiculous. The US had 3 full Armies attacking in France. The British had just one. You are obviously biased on this one. I can respect that. It has value in answering the real question of this thread. However, you are making the same mistake that Hitler did: Not the Jew mistake , but the mistake that democracy and a spoiled lifestyle make a person weak and unable to fight when the shit really hits the fan. To assume that America provided nothing but manufacturing is a gross dismissal of the facts.

The country that did the real work is Russia. It's unfortunate that no one talks about that. I have plans of reading books on the Russian point of view when I get through the 30 or so on my shelf as I know that was blow that has never before been seen in history. I think our political climate in the US from 1945-91 prevented many authors from taking on the task.

Because in all the movies and documentaries produced in the US (which means most of them) "the allies" are presented as dimwitted cannon meat, while the american soldiers are always the heroes. Which, I must repeat, is not true in any sense.

I've watched hundreds and hundreds of hours of documentaries on the subject (all of them in English). Many of them are big on this "American Hero" thing, but I can't remember a time where they undermined anyone by the Nazis and Japan. Hell, most of the documentaries are quite nice to Italy even though they started out as our enemies.

I'm not going to pronounce myself on these views, but they are widely spread. Either way, no American will ever be hated in Europe just for being American, maybe only if he/she fits the stereotype a little too well.

Those types of Americans (I'd guess about 5-10% of the population, maybe less) would never go to Europe anyway. That Toby Keith song about "sticking a boot up your ass" is the most digusting thing I've ever heard. He's spitting on my grandpa's grave (Purple heart, and some medal for being one of the first to cross the Rhine in WW2) and doesn't even know it. I'd LOVE to see Toby Keith rotting in a Nazi POW camp. I'd pay to see it!

This answers my question. Thanks a ton, dude! This "other culture" thing excites me. Some day I'll get out of this dump in Missouri and actually see the world instead of just reading about it.

[brandondrury]

Yeah, the 'Suez Crisis' was the start of a wave of middle east nationalisations.

I don't think this is accurate. The first (and still the most prominant) was the western support of the conquering of a certain piece of land in the East mediterranean by a group that we aren't supposed to call out for anything negative, especially the conquering of lands. The Jews flat out conquered Isreal. Truman hated it! Then he found out he would lose all Jewish support in his re-election if he didnt' approve of it. (There's democracy in action!). Of course, he still lost to Eisenhower in 1952.

Brandon

[Whammo]

I think we can agree that the Zionist 'Jewsade' was quite a piece of work. There were a few ideas for places for a Jewish homeland- Madagascar was one of them.
Anyway our foreign policy has sucked for a looooong time. I kinda like Ron Paul's take on foreign policy. Anyone else it would seem it would be business as usual.

[brandondrury]

After Pearl Harbor there was a panic. We had an army smaller than Romania (it's an interesting coincidence that we have a Romanian on this thread). We simply weren't ready for anything of this scale. There was a reason that Stalin was pissed because it took so long for us to seriously enter the war. Everyone was busting ass for this war whether it be factory work, boot camp/military training, etc.

They said that there were Nazi U-boats all over the Gulf of Mexico. Gulf of Mexico was considered the most dangerous waters in all of the ocean for some time. I can't remember how many merchant ships were being sunk each day but it was a bunch.

Long story short. Americans vowed that they would never let that happen again. So instead of we are going to be consumed by Hawks, socialists, war profiteers, and the power hungry who have stand something to gain from playing God on a global scale.

I'm a big Ron Paul fan. I still am, I guess even though it would take a fluke for that to work out. I like isolationism. I think you do lose some when you aren't out there conquering little guys, but I think you gain way more. There is a natural order of things. When we try to use are influence we just cause one damn catastrophe after another.

I'm of the opinion that we should defend the home land well and then choose our battles VERY wisely. It's a very complicated topic, really.

Brandon

[adilici]

Brandon, you do have a point regarding the war facts. I didn't mention Russia because i was reffering to the Battle of Britain and the liberation of France. I do agree that the US had a major contribution in the war in general, but i do not agree that they single-handedly freed France.

And you're right, I am biased. Probably because of the part of American culture, especially cinema, that gets here. It tends to portray the USA as the greatest country in the world (which it may or may not be, but no one can claim that), while the rest of us are weaklings that beg for favours. I'll bet that there are very few people in the USA that know, for example, that Wallachia and Moldavia (provinces which were to become Romania) fought the Ottoman Empire for about 500 years, effectively keeping them from assaulting central and western Europe. It's things like that that make me biased. In most things american that get to us, i see a distinct lack of interest in the history and culture of other countries. It's like the world started with the Founding Fathers.

Either way, I'm glad to see that you're not in that group. Maybe hanging around here will paint a different picture.

PS. Thanks for the WW2 lesson. Greatly appreciated

[brandondrury]

I do agree that the US had a major contribution in the war in general, but i do not agree that they single-handedly freed France.

This would be accurate. I don't think anyone who is remotely up on their history would say otherwise. Just for the record I've never seen a documentary (no matter how GI Joe American Hero) that ever claimed America did it all. They refer to the "Allies". Maybe there have been some shitty documentaries made and maybe those get pointed out more in foreign countries, but I've never seen them.

And you're right, I am biased. Probably because of the part of American culture, especially cinema, that gets here. It tends to portray the USA as the greatest country in the world (which it may or may not be, but no one can claim that), while the rest of us are weaklings that beg for favours.

Well, you are watching the wrong movies. Good Fellas, Pulp Fiction, Braveheart, and those kinds of movies don't say dick about America. I've never recommended a Will Smith movie, but I HIGHLY recommend you watch "Pursuit of Happiness". This movie illustrates life in America better than any movie I can think of especially for those of us who started with little, have achieved nothing, and know we are capable of more. That movie hit home with me. Maybe the hardships in that movie are a joke compared to many of the horrors faced in Poland in 1944, but you get the idea.

Shitty American movies are filled with bullshit propaganda so the people won't question government. You wouldn't believe how much the United States Army pays in marketing to encourage recruitment because deep down the masses know the US pre-emptive strike policy is bullshit and people aren't signing up for the Army. America will get over Pearl Harbor when it runs out of money. The day is coming!

I'll bet that there are very few people in the USA that know, for example, that Wallachia and Moldavia (provinces which were to become Romania) fought the Ottoman Empire for about 500 years, effectively keeping them from assaulting central and western Europe.

I watched a big 5 part documentary on this 3 or 4 years ago but I've forgotten most of it. That goes back to Tranople (before the Romans changed it to Constantranople), right? It's been a while.

In America, our history classes in school are so full of shit that nearly everyone hates history. This is the result of a socialized school system in my opinion. I got into reading about the Nazis about 5 years ago and have been sucked into reading about other things. So in America everyone is fed pro American bullshit until they puke. Therefore people have very little interest in history.

Of course, the news is the same way. I don't watch the news. I just discovered what has really been going in Iraq from a documentary. I wish I could have gotten this info from the news, but I don't believe a thing I see on the news. It's a useless invention in my opinion.

i see a distinct lack of interest in the history and culture of other countries.

There is SOME truth to that. However, how many people do you know who are genuinely interested in Rhode Island or Madagascar. I think the biggest reason that people assume this is Times Square. I went there about 1.5 years ago. I was BLOWN AWAY. This is NOTHING like anything I had ever seen before. I suspect that foreigners expect all of America to be Times Square.

Brandon

[thesilentdrummer]

About the French Opinion of America:

I don't think that they hate America as much as they hate foreigners. My aunt lives and runs her ski wax company out of Italy. She often does business in France, and she says most people refuse to speak any language besides French, even if they knew English or Italian or German (Common Languages that Italians and Frenchies would know). So maybe they are like the U.S. in some ways, in the sense of "WE'RE IN FRANCE, SPEAK OUR FUCKING LANGUAGE!!!!". This, however, seems to be dwarfed by this: 1) In America, almost nobody is fluent in a foreign language. In Europe, people NEED foreign languages to survive in the business world. Americans are incapable of conversing with non English speakers. Some/most French are capable yet refuse to speak in a foreign language. 2) Some Americans DO speak other Languages, and they use them to communicate with foreign speakers. If someone came up to me and said "Donde está el baño de hombres?", I would respond to them "Allí, a la izquierda, es la sugunda puerta en el pasillo." I believe most Americans capable of speaking a foreign language would if presented the conversation in the foreign language