Communism / Socialism

[brandondrury]

Every once in a while I run into a documentary that has real human beings living in America who think that Communism is a good idea. Ok. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say "Maybe the red scare was bullshit to keep Americans from repeating 1968".

It's 4am so I decided it was a good time refresh my understanding of communism, socialism, etc.


The basic theory of socialism / communism:

instead of working because they have to, people will work because they want to, both out of a sense of responsibility to society and because work satisfies a felt need in their own lives.

I stole this from http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm

I was just curious how close our society / planet has came to people who "want to work" or have a "sense of responsibility". What do you think? Who's excited about going to work on Monday?

The only reason I "want to work" is so I can make enough money to spit on poor people. The only reason I have a "sense of responsibilty" is because dad would beat the hell out of me when I was dipshit.

It's interesting how "noble" results stem from not so noble origins.

Brandon

[dannyman]

I think anyone who's honest has no desire to work. Sure, there are the priviledged few who love what they do, like rock stars, sports stars, etc..., but the average person (which is what communism/socialism is all about, supposedly) does not want to work. Sure, I think most people will agree that working for a paycheck is better than sitting around on your butt all day, but look at how many people are on welfare, many of whom can easily find work. Yeah, there are the few individuals who are driven to do this or that, but most people work because they don't want to starve to death.

Even if most people agreed to live in a communist/socialist society, where no rich and/or privileged people existed, there will always be the greedy individuals who will find a way to get the power. It isn't human nature to be on a "level playing field" financially and in other areas with people.

[brandondrury]

Yup, I agree.

From my readings, one of the aims of communism seamed to be a situation where everyone globally had everything they needed. This may explain why the U.S. never got too excited about communism. It would mean that we all get $2 per hour instead of $12 (or whatever the national average is).

I'm curious about the pro-communist Americans. Are they going to take everything above $2 per hour and send it to 3rd world countries? If they don't, they are full of shit.

I think it takes a "strong" person to stick by your morals. In almost every case, these kinds of people just want to sound like they are "nice" when in fact no one really gives a shit about being "nice".

Brandon

[jdaug]

OOOOH communism/socialism, one of my favorite (or least favorite) topics.

Marx's general theory was:

"To each according to his need, from each according to his ability."

Basically, if you are a semi-literate moron with 10 kids, the government assigns you a job that you can handle, such as scooping dogshit off the sidewalk. In return, you receive enough food from your "employer" (the government) to support your family, and they give you a shitty tenement apartment big enough to squeeze your family into. If you are a single intelligent person, the government sends you to school in a field of their choosing, and then assigns you a job as a rocket scientist for example. In return, they give you enough food to feed yourself and a shitty tenement apartment big enough to squeeze yourself into.

Communism is all about equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity. Whether you are a genius or a retard, everyone has the same standard of living. Except for the very lucky and connected few (usually those in the government), everyone in the country is living at the same level of MEDIOCRITY. The intent is that if you show up to work everyday and do your assigned duties, everything else will be taken care of by the government-healthcare, food, housing, transportation, etc. Behind it all is a massive propaganda campaign by the government to make you think it is a good system, and that everyone is a small but important part of the larger collective, the hive. This is to keep you from questioning why, as a smart rocket scientist, you have a smaller apartment than the moron with 10 kids who can only scoop dogshit, and his food allowance is 10 times that of yours.

Capitalism is all about equality of opportunity. we are all born with more or less the same opportunity to be the best or worst we can be. Some people go on to be highly successful from humble beginnings because they busted their ass and are smart, with maybe a bit of good luck thrown in. Some people are born poor and stay poor because they are stupid, lazy, or maybe got a bad break. Some people are born rich and get even richer. Some people are born rich and lose everything. But the government generally isnt holding us back from being as successful or worthless as we want to be (except for the goddamn tax system, which punishes successful people).

Capitalism isnt perfect, but just compare the productivity and poverty levels of the US vs Cuba (the last true communist country on the planet). Obviously, socialism/communism doesnt work. Even the Red Chinese are finally realizing that free markets are the way to go. Its what scares me about most of the democratic presidential candidates-they wont come out and tell you directly, but they are all in favor of pushing this country in the direction of socialism-lite. Can you say SOCIALIZED MEDICINE????

sorry to get political, i just dont want my country to end up like cuba.

[siski]

Capitalism isnt perfect, but just compare the productivity and poverty levels of the US vs Cuba (the last true communist country on the planet). Obviously, socialism/communism doesnt work.

Don't mix socialism and communism up together, its like mixing up capatilism and facism.

Their are plenty of socialist govenment experiments that have worked ok, but they are not perfect just like the capitalist systems aroung the globe.

Personally I think that things can be learnt from both left and right sides

[jdaug]

Ummm...no. communism is a form of government based on socialism, which is a socio-economic model . capitalism is not a form of government based on fascism. Hitler was a fascist and a socialist, but not a communist.

sure things can be learned from socialism, like that it doesnt work. If people in America want to live in a socialist country I recommend they move to one instead of trying to change us into that.

[siski]

Originally Posted by jdaug

Ummm...no. communism is a form of government based on socialism, which is a socio-economic model . capitalism is not a form of government based on fascism. Hitler was a fascist and a socialist, but not a communist.

OK but what I meant was that France up untill recently had a socialist govenment but It sure wasn't communist. Now they have a few problems like all democractically elected govenments.

Also I didn't say that Facism was based on Capitalism. Communism is far left, Socialism is left, Capitalism is right and Facism is far right.

sure things can be learned from socialism, like that it doesnt work. If people in America want to live in a socialist country I recommend they move to one instead of trying to change us into that.

OK, even in your country you have socialist elements, the Unions are born out of socialism. As I said things can be learnt from both left and right sides.

Lastly why should they move, they just see America differently from you and thats it? Viva le difference!

Si

[jdaug]

well i wouldnt say France has a true socialist government, but certainly more so than US. all of europe is that way. socialism lite with very high taxes and supposedly a lot of government hand outs including health care. thats where our democratic party is trying to take america, which is what i dont like about them.

i like to rely on myself and have the government stay the hell out of my wallet and my way. thats the whole reason america was founded. if people are into socialism, fine. there are plenty of countries to choose from in europe and elsewhere. its like going to a chinese restaurant and demanding they serve you italian food. why not just walk down the street to the italian place (Canada)??

[siski]

Originally Posted by jdaug

there are plenty of countries to choose from in europe and elsewhere. its like going to a chinese restaurant and demanding they serve you italian food. why not just walk down the street to the italian place (Canada)??

Well it's not quite that easy, and America is a domocracy so it maybe out of your control, so why not lobby your chinese to hire an Italian Chef?

[Futant55]

I have a desire to go out a kill animals and watch my children devour it. Now thats honesty, but these desires are subsided by my desire to be lazy and just go to the grocery store and buy something. In my opinion we have pimped our way of existence to much for a system like this to work. It is to easy for one person to control many or for one person to mooch off the system, and that is what inevitably happens. Imagine if there was a flux in the earth's electromagnetic field (caused by this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_shift_theory )that fried every electronic device in the world. We would regress into a hunting and gathering/farming lifestyle. I think there is pure desire and a sense of responsibility in working when you actually have to work to keep yourself alive. I think this is a feeling we as a majority have long lost touch with, but if you had the feeling of knowing it was do or die and at the end of the day you kept yourself alive, you would get off on that shit. It's our basic primal instinct of survival.

P.S. This would be a cool idea for a comic book, and I didn't read the rest of this thread, yet.