Private Guitar Lessons

[jdaug]

Great topic! lots of very different opinions on this subject. heres my 22 cents:

I started playing at age 10, way before the internet or even VCR. I had no family or friends who were musical to even point me in the right direction, so the only way for me to learn at that age was with a private teacher. I took lessons until I was 16 or so (my first teacher taught folk song strumming using basic open chords, then I switched teachers and learned sight reading and basic theory, mostly jazz, then switched teachers again to a guy who taught me rock songs, riffs, tricks, and more theory).

After age 16 I was entirely self taught, using books, internet, and jamming along to my favorite music.

I went through a 1 year period in college where I was putting in 2-6 hours almost every day practicing theory and working on chops, I guess trying to be Yngwie or something. my grades sucked but my guitar skills improved very quickly. to put it in perspective, if my relative skill level at age 10 was zero, and my relative skill level now at age 38 is 10, I would say in that one year I went from 4 to 8. frequent sustained and concentrated practice is the best way to get chops fast. most good technical players will tell you that they need to noodle around for at least an hour before their hands are even **** enough to begin working on difficult exercises that lead to real improvement, and then need to do that for at least an hour in order for it to stick.

my guitar time is way limited these days, so I spend that time writing and recording music. as a result my technical skills will not improve noticably. its cool-I dont want to be Yngwie anymore.

so to answer the initial question, a teacher cant hurt. If you are a really young player, its probably good because you dont even know what you need to know. You may need someone to give you direction. The teacher alone cant make you good though. you have to be motivated and spend a whole shit load of time on your own practicing. (My 10 year old kid just started playing 2 months ago, and the only time he picks up his guitar is when he goes to his lesson twice a week for 30 minutes. He is destined for failure.)

As far as theory goes, again, it cant hurt. Of course there are guitarists like Curt Cobain who sucked technically and probably didnt know shit about theory but still made some very successful songs. He got lucky. People who poo-poo music theory are knuckledraggers and are probably insecure about their lack of it. Its kind of like education: if you had the choice, would you rather be a semi-literate moron or actually know something about how the world works? It opens doors and creates possibilities, but is not the be-all/end-all. You still have to use it to create something cool.
Maybe instead of learning theory you spent hours and hours learning how to play Van Halens Eruption note for note and think you are shit hot. Then you go to a band audition and they want you to play a solo over a progression in G minor. If you dont know basic theory you are going to look and sound like an idiot, even though you may be a "faster" guitar player than the other guy auditioning who played a slower but well thought out solo.

I saw a Youtube video of Dream Theater doing a live cover of Pantera's Cemetery Gates with guest soloist Dave Mustaine. Petrucci did the slower intro solo and nailed it perfectly, then Dave took over at the fast part and it was absolutely god-awful. He was picking a mile-a-minute but it was all garbage, not in key or tempo, missed notes, and was really hard to watch. A little more theory knowledge and/or practice would have kept him from embarassing himself (or maybe less booze).

[Sweet T]

Originally Posted by jdaug

... if my relative skill level at age 10 was zero, and my relative skill level now at age 38 is 10, I would say in that one year I went from 4 to 8. frequent sustained and concentrated practice is the best way to get chops fast.

I just thought that statement needed repeating.

so to answer the initial question, a teacher cant hurt.

Yes, but if the teacher is a slacker, or burnt out, the student would be better off with a good book and occasional lesson.



As far as theory goes, again, it cant hurt. Of course there are guitarists like Curt Cobain who sucked technically and probably didnt know shit about theory but still made some very successful songs. He got lucky. People who poo-poo music theory are knuckledraggers and are probably insecure about their lack of it. Its kind of like education: if you had the choice, would you rather be a semi-literate moron or actually know something about how the world works? It opens doors and creates possibilities, but is not the be-all/end-all. You still have to use it to create something cool.

Yes, very well said. A beginning student will be sooo much better off if he learns the basics in the early stages. He will learn faster, play better, and his choices will be limitless.

Maybe instead of learning theory you spent hours and hours learning how to play Van Halens Eruption note for note and think you are shit hot. Then you go to a band audition and they want you to play a solo over a progression in G minor. If you dont know basic theory you are going to look and sound like an idiot, even though you may be a "faster" guitar player than the other guy auditioning who played a slower but well thought out solo.

Yes, exactly, but you said it so much better than I!

Exactly. If you don't learn theory, you will find yourself in Brandon's predicament. He's busy now, has learned to manage without it, but clearly demonstrates the point, while you have the time, learn it. You will NEVER regret it.

[brandondrury]

Of course there are guitarists like Curt Cobain who sucked technically and probably didnt know shit about theory but still made some very successful songs. He got lucky.

Avoiding the obvious suicide jokes, I don't think his technical chops or lack their of made any difference in the success of the band. His luck came in commercial success which was greater than any shredder I know of except for maybe Van Halen. I guess I kind of took that statement to imply that technical guitarists have a better chance at "success" than non-technical guitarists. I don't that part really matters.

Of course, learning to REALLY play rythm with proper groove is OUTSTANDINGLY hard. The average shredder dude has absolutely no idea just how tough it is to play "Smells Like Teen Spirit" for Butch Vig. 90% of all shredder dudes would be fired if they were in that studio situation. My buddy is probably the 2nd or 3rd best guitar player I know. It took him 13 days to record 5 simple pop rock songs with a producer with platinum records on the walls. It had to be THAT tight. So that's another argument altogether.

If you dont know basic theory you are going to look and sound like an idiot, even though you may be a "faster" guitar player than the other guy auditioning who played a slower but well thought out solo.

Maybe the guys I've worked with weren't as good at the theory as they suggest. However, a lot of the guys that I've dealt with who were "theory" guys sounded like every other jackass when it came to improv. Of course, I hate improv jamming and I hate to listen to it or watch it even more.

No band I would ever be in would require any real improv work. I just don't like that kind of thing. I'm not against it, I just won't be putting my time or dollars into it. Any band I would be in would focus on writing killer pop songs. Any solos would HAVE to be worked out beforehand. Not all, but most local dudes who try to do improv solos just sound boring to me. Maybe this is from lack of theory. Maybe it's from too much theory.

If you don't learn theory, you will find yourself in Brandon's predicament. He's busy now, has learned to manage without it, but clearly demonstrates the point, while you have the time, learn it. You will NEVER regret it.

"Predicament" is a strong word, but I can't disagree. Maybe I'll dabble with this when I get time. Luckily, the lack of music theory issue only comes up when the vocalist doesn't know how to harmonize.

Brandon

[Sweet T]

you have to write like ten words in this forum so here's some words. But I only wanted to write one...

touche

[banjobkp]

Hello!
I'm 45 and been playing guitar since I was 18. Pretty much self taught, and boy it was the long way round.

I'm going to take some time to frame this up for you, but this is important.

You will not learn the secret to playing guitar from a lesson. That you will discover over time.

Don't necessarily get down on lessons. I had the same feeling after having similar experiences. But since I've been learning to play the banjo, I've been working off and on with professional players who give lessons. I realized that to sit with someone who makes a living at performing and creating music, who has fully developed their

Dexterity
Rhythm
Hearing
and
Ensemble Skills

And understand how to explain what it is, is worth every penny.

Notice I didn't put in theory. Theory is optional, but having an understanding of the genre specific theory for the music style your pursuing is all you need.

Think of it as a pyramid, but what I listed, put the dexterity on the bottom and Ensemble Skills on the top.

Know when your working, your working in these areas. Dexterity is simple enough. make up drills to work your fingers, Chord Drills, fingering drills, picking drills, your right hand drives the bus, so make sure you look at your right hand too.

How you hold the pick and a multitude of right hand damping, fast picking, alternate picking and cross picking as well as quality strumming with the right pick is all involved. that's what a teacher should be working with you. Establishing the right physical techniques and developing your dexterity of both hands.

And do these drills in rhythm when you can move your fingers smoothly between chords and drills. Every professional musician I have ever spoken about practice always talk about using the metronome. So don't be an ass and think that you don't have to. (Trust me, we are all asses!)

You have to learn how to use a metronome. Its not just someone saying, work with a metronome. It is fair to ask, how?

There is more to follow, and its late and I have to go to bed.

But if you can create your own lesson plan, which you really are in charge of, your instructor is really there to monitor you, guide you and correct you and tell you how to do things. That's what you should be looking for.

[jdaug]

Notice I didn't put in theory. Theory is optional

Maybe our definitions of theory are different. When I say theory I mean knowing scales in different keys and signatures, knowing different chord types and their names, which scales work over which chords, what a quarter note is, etc. I wouldnt say this is optional for anyone above beginner level. Of course there is more advanced theory like modes, chord inversions, how to build chords (like what makes a chord a flat 13), harmonization and arpeggiation, etc. This stuff may be optional, but I dont see how a guitarist can communicate with other musicians in a band without knowing basic theory. Its like trying to communicate with someone when the other person doesnt speak your language-its hard to get your point across by grunting, pointing, and hand gestures. Even if you arent in a band, its hard to read tab or chord progressions if you dont know what an Em chord or eighth note is.

make up drills to work your fingers, Chord Drills, fingering drills

how do you do these drills if you dont know any chords or scales? Chords and scales are theory in my world.

All your other points are well taken, and theory knowledge alone without the physical ability to apply it to your instrument makes you a music theory teacher, not a musician. Practice Practice Practice.

[brandondrury]

Maybe our definitions of theory are different. When I say theory I mean knowing scales in different keys and signatures, knowing different chord types and their names, which scales work over which chords, what a quarter note is, etc. I wouldnt say this is optional for anyone above beginner level.

I saw an interview where Ted Nugent tried to jam with KISS. He was floored. KISS simply did not have the ability to jam in any improvisational way. They couldn't do it. I can't do it either. It's never mattered to me.

I consider "music theory" to give you the ability to jam or "improvise" on the spot.

Chords and scales are theory in my world.

Not in my world. Chords and scales are preset devices that a person can be told to use without understanding them. I know. There was a day when I could play some scales pretty fast, but I had no idea what, when, and why. I didn't know what chords they worked with and such. I couldn't improvise.

I dont see how a guitarist can communicate with other musicians in a band without knowing basic theory.

Dream Theater requires music theory. I wonder if Tom Petty does. I wonder if The Outfield or the Eurythmics or The Cars put much thought into it. It just depends on what you want to do with your music. I'm sure the Dragonforce guys do.

Every professional musician I have ever spoken about practice always talk about using the metronome. So don't be an ass and think that you don't have to.

Ha! You've just made it to the super quote page.
I couldn't have sounded like a bigger jerk, myself. ha ha! Great job! Sometimes you need to smack your buddy upside the face with a 2x4. It's called a "wake up call".

[banjobkp]

I knew when I press post, my theory is optional statement was going to be insufficient.

Music Theory is nothing more than a tool to explain music in terms of words.

It is a powerful tool, but it isn't necessary to be a genius musician. The history of great musician are filled with guys who don't the first thing about music theory. What is in their head is a deep understanding about music on their own terms.

So many of us musicians can be distracted or caught up in believing that the "secret" of being a musician is understanding the big book of music theory which is there to explain all music elements. I myself have books and honestly, there is not one thing in the books that make one bit of sense when it comes to "making" music, because it is an abstract from the wordless world of music.

Steve Martin said: Talking about music is like dancing about architecture. The sound and flow of a music piece just are, and the sooner one realizes how to Hear music as it is and get your internal diaglog to stop interfering with that ability to listen, the closer you are to being able to really function as a musician.

The point is, theory is not the secret to being a musician. The "secret" to being a musician is to develop your wordless musical chops.

Even writing and probably reading this is painful. Because it can really do justice to what music really is. But talk we must as what other thing can we do to share our thoughts about music.

Anyways, philosophy aside, music theory is hardly a waste of time as it is a wonderful tool for musician to communicate efficiently to each other about what is happening or going to happen in a piece. Personally, I couldn't lead a band without being able to conceptualize to my band mates a chord progression via Relative Chord Position Numbering and Terms like Minor, 7th, 9th, etc.

And it saves time in exploring music concepts one wants to add for an instructor to be able to use tools within music theory to explain musical genre's, or the rules of a music style.

What we really don't need to understand in the big book of music theory is the stuff we don't need that music theory explains. And not knowing what we don't need drives many of us crazy, because we think if we knew that stuff, we would be better for it.

That is not always true. Being able to shout out "Phygrian, Phygrian damn it!", only will work other people have a clue as to what your going on about. You'd do alot better to say, White Rabbit, White Rabbit! (if the musician your working with are, sad to say, experienced! i.e. old)

I spent time with a music professional and discussed my concept of Genre Specific Music Theory, and he really liked the idea. The point is to understand the elements that apply to a style of music, which narrows the big book of music theory considerably. You don't need to understand all the exotic concepts that music theory explains in order to play the blues.

In fact, you don't really have to "understand" anything about theory to manipulate a guitar efficient by using Boxes, shapes or the geometry of positions on the guitar.

I taught a young teenager essentially how to play the blues in 15 minutes buy showing him the boxes his fingers needed to manipulate over a chord progression. We can always talk about the blue note, but you need to know how to play the blue note. You have to manipulate the sound out of the instrument. Theory doesn't do that for you. But it saves me time if I can say, use G modal chord. (A signal that the song is in minor key.) - (A side note, the young man I showed how to play the blues was playing for some friends and they are blown away by what he was doing. He told them it was easy, you put your finger here and here... I told not to tell them it was easy, we need to keep playing music a mystery now don't we! You have to talk about sweat and sacrifice. People assume if you know how to do something, you must be an expert!)

Music performance is much more about being an athlete. Good athletes react to what they see without thinking. In fact thinking is a killer when you need to react. Music requires you to be in fact not reacting but taking action in the moment. You can't be thinking because if you are, you will be behind the beat. No good musician is thinking about theory while they are playing.

So we really need to try to demystify theory and make it the tools that it is for, as a way to communicate between musicians, and to have the chops to act on that communication.

If someone says 12 bar blues in A, that all I need to hear to go into my Blues chops mode, hear the count/tempo and pull out of the air a working sound to complement what the others are doing. Do I think about Pentonic Minor Scales, absolutely not, I have already drilled the boxes, positions, geometry, muscle memory, and auditory memory of what the blues are and I let it fly. If I play bad, its not because of theory, its because my chops are not there.

To be able to get in a band and work with others, its a big plus if the group your working has the ability to understand Chords and the terminology around them and the number system of scales. Beyond that, you need to understand the genre elements of the style and to be really good, understand what everyone else role is, and to be able to react to and impose your will on what is being performed.

John Hartford said about the aeroplane session that after all the preparation they did, his hands would just "know" where to go and he was essentially two eyes floating in a head.

For my purposes, I understand that feeling. Of acting without thinking, to be in the moment, to be listening to the sound of the band and not thinking about anything.

I have to coach folks to try to get out ones little shell and try playing without focusing on oneself. To listen to someone else play while playing yourself and to let what your doing happen in that context. Theory has nothing to say about that music state.

I'm not being down on theory. I'm known even to some professional musicians to "know" more about theory then they do, which is a testament that theory, when it comes to being a musician, isn't all that in the world of creating and performing and listening.

I hope that add a bit of perspective to the whole theory thing. Just learn what you need to know to play the style of music your looking to do. Understand Chord Names and the progressions that are used in a music genre, and understand the relative number system of notes and chords so that you can play in any key, a wonderful capability of the guitar.

[jdaug]

Understand Chord Names and the progressions that are used in a music genre, and understand the relative number system of notes and chords so that you can play in any key

yeah this is what Im talking about. I call this basic theory. Maybe my definitions are wrong. Anyhow for the guy who started the thread, he needs to learn this stuff, whatever its called.

[Sweet T]

Two definitions of music theory that I just copied and pasted:

1`Music theory is a field of study that investigates the nature or mechanics of music. It often involves identifying patterns that govern composers' techniques. ...

2`The study of how music is put together.

Banjo, you know ALOT of theory, and you just told Mouse to learn theory.