I'm a Marshall guy, let's fight about it.

[brandondrury]

It seams that every other forum that I read that focuses on rock / metal guitar has a forum debating between Marshall and Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifiers.? Well, let me break it down for you.

1)The Dual Rectifier sound is often tough to get right.? Yes, Disturbed pulls the tone off pretty good.? With Rectifiers there is whole in them.? You can call this "mids" but that's like using a handgrenade to scratch your leg.? There is a certain midrange missing in them.? From now on, I will refer to this as Midrange X.? There are tones that don't require Midrange X.? The Disturbed tone is one of them.? You have to go with the fizzy type of tone that is almost industrialish to get it to work.?

When you start trying to get a mean and aggressive rock tone, you find that Midrange X is required for balls and yes aggression.? So, depending on the style you play, the Rectifier will give you a very aggressive tone or a very boring tone.? I've not heard a Rectifier that could pull of the Slayer "Diabolus In Musica" tone which I consider to be on the meanest, biggest, and most aggressive tones ever.? Listen in particularly to "Bitter Peace". This tone definitely has Midrange X in it. I would expect this to be the tone that the average Rectifier guy is going after. You won't find it in a Rectifier.

2)The Marshall sound is tough to get right too.? I guess they both take some tweaking.? With my 1971 Marshall Superlead, there is something magical about it.? A guy who wants to sound like some 70s band certainly will.? I have a buddy who's a badass at playing old Thin Lizzy and ZZ Top.? When that amp is cranked, it's pretty much the exact same tone.? It's impressive.? However, give me the same guitar and I'll start hitting old Ride The Lightning.? It's basically the same tone.? Start playing Guns N Roses, it's the same tone.

I'm not saying that all those bands have the exact same tone, per say.? I'm saying that all these tones come from a Marshall and it's more about the tone in your fingers than it is with the amp.


So, in summary, both Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifiers and Marshalls have been used to make some great sounding records.? I personally feel that Marshalls have the balls that the Rectifiers do not have.? Rectifiers have the high end thing that most Marshalls do not (but you could easily get if you want to).? I don't feel Rectifiers are all that suited for rock music.? If you are not pushing the limit with them, they dont' sound their best.?

Alright.? Let's Fight.
Brandon

[DPfromCllosure]

I have both Mesa stuff and an old Line6 and I think you're picking on me.? Pretty soon you're going to say that real guitar players shouldn't be playing Ashlee Simpson covers...and that's where I draw the line.

On a more serious note, I played a Marshall 100 watt tube head for 5 years, and I've played a Mesa Rectifier now for 5 years.? If you asked me now to go back and play on a Marshall, it'd be like cutting off two of my fingers on my left hand.? I know this is "recording review" so this is really irrelevant, but a marshall does not work live.? It sounds wimpy and weak.? I worked for 5 years to get a tone that could get the attention of a live crowd, and it never happened.? Mesa's will bite through everything else so that the crowd will notice how strong of sound the guitars have.? I would attribute a pretty large part of our Closure success to our Mesa guitar tone both due to the actual quality of the tone and to the fact that pretty much every band on pop radio at that time (Creed, Nickelback, Puddle of Mudd, etc) were all using them so it was a tone our crowd was already familiar with.? Put a couple Marshalls in the place of the Mesas and people would notice how much weaker it sounds.?

I'll put it this way, if Mesa and Marshall were brothers, Marshall is the older brother that played in the local band who got a little attention and still thinks he's a big deal.? Well Mesa came along and outperformed his older brother and by doing so got signed and got rich and famous.? Now the 35-year-old Marshall sits at home admiring his mustache thinking he could still outperform his little brother if he wanted to when everybody knows he really can't.

[brandondrury]

Since I understand you position pretty well, I can comment with a greater understanding. This is unfortunate because misunderstanding is what leads to wars...which is what I'm really wanting on this forum.

Many times, it's an issue of using the right guitar / amp combination. Different guitars can sound drastically different through the same amp with the same settings. I'm amazed how levels are usually quite different between the two when recording even though the only factor that has changed is the guitar. In my experience, the PRS is the only guitar that works through a Recto. It's still not a sound that I enjoy much on it's own, but it is certainly usable. Obviously, this is just personal taste. You may have noticed that good ole Mark Tromonti (I don't know how to spell his name, nor do I want to look it up) started splitting into a Fender combo as well as a Rectifier. He obiously heard that Midrange X was missing and needed the Fender to help out with it. (You should hear the Fender solo'd some time). I got suckered into going to a Creed show a while back. The tone was terrible on the solo's Fender, but I must admit that it did blend well with the Recto. I've used this trick a lot, but I usually use an old 50 watt Marshall set to be abrasive. This seams to compliment the Recto much better. The problem is when you turn the high end up they get super fizzy. When you turn the high end down, it sounds boring and lifeless. The Marshall doesn't get fizzy in this setting. Basically, I replace the high mids of the the Dual Rectifier with the Marshalls.

There is no doubt that I've heard a lot of guys who couldn't squeeze an ounce of ton out of their Marshall.

Of course, I've heard just as many retards with Rectos with the mids all the way down and the highend killing everyone within a few hundred yards.

I can't speak for live shows, but in the studio there is no telling what a band really used unless you were there. Even DVDs can be misleading. They may show the recording of one overdub when there may have been 30 other layers done earlier that day with 30 different amps.

As for my pathetic attempts at real tone, I've always found it easier to get a tone with Marshalls. There is no way to mix in Midrange X after the fact. I didn't start out hating the Rectifier. That's just something that I've grown into after having so much trouble getting any balls out of them.

As for Marshall's being weak, that's just an issue of the player and their guitar. I've never had a problem getting a tone out of a Marshall. I won't hesitate to toss a perimetric eq in front of the amp and in the effects loop. The most brutal tones in history have classically been Marshalls. I'm telling you, download "Bitter Peace" by Slayer. Skip through the 1 minute intro and listen. This is a band that refuses to use anything but good old JCM 800s (which don't have that much gain, by the way).

Brandon

[brandondrury]

I have both Mesa stuff and an old Line6 and I think you're picking on me.

Yeah, there a bunch of "you" on this planet. Most of them are listening to nothing but Thrice and Avenged Sevenfold. Thank god you are not.

Actually, if you want to defend your Line6, go ahead.

It's the classic trash talking deal. The guy down by 3 touchdowns starts running his mouth. His winning opponent says "Just look at the scoreboard". It works everytime.

In the case of the Line6, "Just listen to it". It works everytime.

Brandon

[DPfromCllosure]

Well, technically Damon bought the Line6, and now it sits in an old farm shed right now collecting dust. So I shall not at all defend that piece of garbage. But it was just coincidental that I had two of the brands you bashed.

[brandondrury]

Keep in mind that I'm not bashing the entire Mesa Boogie line. They make a bunch of great amps. I just think that the Dual Rectifier series is a crock.

I must admit that I really liked the Recto-Verb. It's obviously a totally different circuit. It has Midrange X and the things that most people like about the standard Rectifiers.

Brandon

[Matt]

I'm definitely not a 'rectifier' fan.? Although I think the "Trem-o-verb" that Boogie made several years ago was a great amp.? It seemed to have many more useful tones, and was 'single-coil friendly' (which is important to me)...Kim Thayil from Soundgarden used one of these in the later years.?

Personally, I like small watt class A combos.? I have a Dr. Z Maz 18 that does everything I need it to.? ?It has a fender/vox type of grit to it when cranked, and responds very well to pedals.? ?The thing I like about the boutique combos is that they are essentially purpose built.? They have a unique voice, definitely not a run-of-the-mill type tone.?

Another reason I like the small watt combos is the simple fact that they are easy to control.? Mine is 18 class A watts.? I can crank it up, get the tone I'm looking for, and not run everyone out of the bar/club, or fight everyone in the band's volume.? If it's not loud enough, I mic it.

Finally, I like em because it doesn't break my back lugging it around, or take up too much room in the van...

I've had Marshall and Sunn stacks, and I've found that a small watt combo is much more suited to what I do.

That being said, I'd really like to find a Fender Tweed combo, or a newer tweed clone...but I'm a sucker for early Billy Gibbons and Neil Young's tone....

[brandondrury]

I just recorded a Dr. Z amp a few weeks ago. Very cool! I know exactly what you are saying with the small boutique amps. Not exactly the same thing as the hard rock / metal guys going for all out death, but the Dr. Z amp I heard was definitely cool.

I own a Rivera Knucklehead and it gets used more than other amp I have. The Knucklehead was bought used in '98 back when Rivera was very small. It has an emormous amount of tone in it.

I had a Budda in a while back. It was another very cool amp. It was a Vox on steroids. Lots of fun.

When cash allows, I'm wanting to pick up a Fender Pro Jr. Like your amp, it's about 15 watts or so. I can turn them up without thinking about it.

Brandon

[guitar junkie]

well i have only checked out this little Mesa amp in a store once but it was kinda cool for the country i was playing on it...

i can't say as i know much about the tone of the rectifier amps as thats not the crap i work with.

now as for a Marshall amp...

all i have ever used was the nicer ones for the 60s and 70s my boss has a pair of half stack white models that really rock out! never had new speakers or tubes in them same as they have always been. great tone!

we rent some nicer amps for the bands to use once in a while though....

Marshall works well for the rock and roll shows and i have heard some great tones made with them

not long ago i was playing a gig and one of the guys used his half stack... man that thing sucked! looked it up and also checked out what i was used to running and CRAP! the ones i have used are $5'000!!!!!!!!!! man oh man who would have thought that?

no wonder his sucks its only a $700 amp with no tubes...

myself i like the sound of a nice clean tube pre with a little reverb in the rack and then just run into the house or something... but then i never play my Strat any way i always do the unplugged shows...

[crash]

A really good guitar player can find a way get something good sounding out of just about any rig. But it's easier to do so with a Marshall and a Les Paul.