30 Years Of Playing - Still Can't Find The Tone

[brandondrury]

This question was asked via email, so I figured I'd move it here.

Hello, I just need some advice on how to set my rig up. I'm looking for a **** but pounchey lead sound with a percusive edge to it not a thin sound but a full sound not muddy not hollow sounding as well a a clean full sound with bottom end to it on the clean chanel. . My Rivera R55 with extention cab sounded pritty full but not right, so I retubed it about 6 months ago and added a MXR m-108 10 band EQ. It souned ok for about six months now it sounds toneless and dull. (tubes ??) What I'm saying is that it really never sounded right for me. I'v been playing professionaly for 30 yrs looking for the right sound ,never finding it. My styles of music are classic rock,pop,blues. I have a Gibson Les Paul Classic guitar and a Fender 50th anniversary with the new samirun pickups. Andy advice would gretaly be appricated.
Thank You:
Steve Hager

Hello Steve. it sounds like your gear is very high end and the fact you've been a pro guitarist for so long suggests to me that you have exactly what you need for killer tones. The bigger question is whether or not your guitar rig can give you the RIGHT tones. Because this guitar tone thing is so subjective, it's really impossible to tell you how to do it.

If you were playing a Line6 amp or something, I would tell you to get a real amp. If you were playing a junky guitar, I'd tell you to get a real guitar. If you were a beginner, I'd tell you that tone mostly comes from the fingers. None of these things apply to your situation.

So, what we have is an issue of needing different tones. The only way you are going to get different tones is to think differently when setting up the gear you currently have or to consider getting different gear. I own a Rivera Knucklehead and I LOVE it. It gets used all the time at my place. However, maybe your Rivera may not be right for you and your guitars.

I'v been playing professionaly for 30 yrs looking for the right sound ,never finding it.

I could go a zillion routes with this one.

I could say that no one really "finds THAT sound". Just about anyone with great tone is still looking for something else. The grass is always greener, I guess.

Some people put some much emphasis on tone that they put themselves in a mentality that nothing will ever sound great.

Even though the first Van Halen album has amazing guitar tone, I've heard live recordings and such that didn't sound nearly as good. Who knows! So the tone is going to change each and every time you play anyway.

My advice to you is to try out EVERYTHING. Make a HUGE list of amps that you must try out before buying anything. Take notes after playing on each amp so that you can reference back to what you thought when you played on it.

Even though I have some fun amps, recently I got BLOWN AWAY by an old Fender Bronco (essentially the same circuit as a Fender Princeton) when I put an overdrive pedal in front of it. I bought the amp on the spot. It does what I always wanted my vintage Marshalls to do.

So, try out EVERYTHING even if it seems like something you wouldn't like.

Brandon

[sthebluesman]

I too have been playing for 37 years and just recently went on the tone search. I am a die hard Fender fan and just recently delved into the vintage amp market (very expensive by the way).

My first try was a 1975 Silverface Deluxe Reverb which sounded good at first but was too weak and flubby for real gigs. My second amp which is THE workhorse of amps, was a 1966 Blackface Super Reverb. This would be my all around gig amp because it has a lot of clean headroom but distorts nicely at higher volumes. My next one was the big jump into the Tweed era, a 1959 Bandmaster. This is my all time favorite recording amp because it has that punchy midrange honk that I have never heard in any other amp but it does break up at fairly low volumes which makes it hard to keep up with Supers on stage. My last amp was a little 1957 tweed Harvard which has turned out to be another cool sounding recording amp. It has the same cool midrage honk but at much lower volumes.

The intersting part is I recently tried one of the new reissue Fender amps, particulary the newer 1959 Bassman and was totally blown away by the sound of this amp. They are using the dove-tail joint pine cabinets on the new ones. It made me a little sick because I thought I could have saved a lot of money and just bought it instead. My amp tech friend tells me since they are not point-to-point circuits, they are not that dependable. He told me I should look at the 1957 reissue Twin which is p-p. I have not tried it but you might want to try one out. It could be the sound you are looking for.

Of course, after reading alot, the tried-and-true recording amp appears to be an old high powered (80W) Twin Reverb but then they cost as much as a car and are loud as hell but then you get the bottom end and headroom you need. Try the '57 reissue (40W) although they are not cheap either.

I use an '80's vintage '57 reissue Strat and just recently bought the SRV Strat with the gold hardware. Both are beautiful but the SRV matches better with the Super and the '57 reissue matches better with the Bandmaster.

Which brings up a very important point: your tone depends on the combination of the right guitar with the right amp, and not just changing one or the other.

[brandondrury]

My amp tech friend tells me since they are not point-to-point circuits, they are not that dependable.

I've never heard that point to point circuits were more dependable. I always assumed the opposite. I figured a printed board would have less imperfections. With that said, I do prefer the sound of the point-to-point circuits quite a bit better.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

I've never heard that point to point circuits were more dependable. I always assumed the opposite. I figured a printed board would have less imperfections. With that said, I do prefer the sound of the point-to-point circuits quite a bit better.

Aside from the sonic benefits, I think the major advantage of handwired vs circut boards is the ease of repair/troubleshooting in "the field" (on tour). For the most part, handwired circuts are simpler, and easier to diagnose problems and repair. A cold solder joint or burn resistor is easier to find and replace in a handwired amp; compared to tring to pull a resisitor from a pcb without damaging it...or trying to get an entire loaded pcb in the event of a major failure.

There are other design flaws that most modern pcb amps suffer from, imo. For instance, most manufacturers are attaching the pots and plastic input/output jacks directly to the pcb after doing away with 'flying leads' from the pcb to the pots. Marshall started doing this in the mid-80s, Fender has been doing it a while also...that's one of my major gripes. It makes changing a jack or pot a much more involved process since it has to be extracted from the pcb. Rather than desoldering 3 wires and popping in a new pot or jack...you need someone with some skill/experience and a special pot/jack. It's not that big of a deal if you don't need the amp right away...but if you're on the road, and something goes down, you'll probably be renting or borrowing and amp for a while.

/pcb-modern mass produced amp bitch session off

-Matt

[sthebluesman]

Brandon,
I asked my amp tech to comment on the printed circuits. It doesn't take much to get him fired up. Read his comment:

Thats a NO BRAINER !!! Printed circuit boards serve one purpose and one purpose alone, "Mass Production" The etched foil they use in place of wire is designed to handle only the current the from the circuit when its running properly but God forbid a tube shorts or one of many things happen to throw the voltages off then the foil will toast leaving your amp worthless. Furthermore, The solder connections are about 10% the size and durability of a PtP wired amp. Not to mention that the rigid board poses a weakness in itself because they will not give If the amp is dropped in transport not to mention the multiple push on connections thru out the board that get loose and come off or simply burn up when they get loose from being bumped around. Then their is the fact that the thin foil taking the place of a wire with 100X less resistance has to alter the tone if you know anything about Ohms law.
Its like compairing a Yugo to a Rolls Royce. PC boards are about profit and profit only. Dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
Keep in mind I see them when they melt down!
Regards
Doc

[brandondrury]

Okay, this makes sense. It's not so much about "precision" per say that only a mega accurate machine could pull off. I get it. Again, I go with point-to-point amps anytime I can afford them.

Thanks for the info.

Brandon

[banjobkp]

Way back in the nineties when I was playing rock and blues guitar, we got hooked on the PRS and Charvel's and the Rivera amps.

But in the end, all that stuff went away.

Maybe that sound your looking for isn't really a Tone, but a kind of clarity.

The best rig i ever heard live was a Soldano Head on a 4 speaker cabinet. I don't know how that guy did it, he was in a local philly band called Brickland. But I've never heard anything as good since.

It was just flawless and so clear. Words like Transparent or what, it just was great. And it was a simple setup.

So while I didn't/couldn't get a soldano rig form myself. I decided to simplify my setup to my modified telecaster with bill lawrence knife edge pickup in the treble and some none descript humbucker in the neck, pluged into a Line Boost into a JC120.

While it wasn't perfect, it was different, and while everyone else was stomping on effects pedals, I was just boosting my volume on leads and playing with just the minimal overdrive in the JC120. I learned then that maybe the sound is the one that is just different from what everyone else is doing and is subject to change.

From that experience, i ask the young bucks now,

If you sound like everyone else, who do you sound like?

[brandondrury]

If you sound like everyone else, who do you sound like?

I'm all for a person doing their homework to see what they like and don't in terms of gear and such. However, I see WAY too much of this "adhering to an objective standard" crap and not nearly as much trying to find gear that compliments their music.

There is a balance between the people who are oblivious to their tone (usually bad guitar players in general) and those that are so busy chasing their tonal dreams they miss the bigger musical picture.

[Briza]

I will never stop chasing tonal dreams!!! But I can also remember handfuls of times where I have been happy with my tone as well. It's truly one of those things that can drive you crazy if you let it...

BUT...If you are using top shelf gear and are still struggling to get decent tones. You are either being too picky, or have no idea on how to tweak the settings on your gear (which is highly improbable).

Before you go spending another 15 grand on gear, just make sure you don't have "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow tone syndrome".

I've seen it before and it aint pretty.

[sthebluesman]

I will have to say I think I have been lucky because my tonal search ended fairly quickly. First of all, it all depends on what type of tone you are looking for. All I want is a tone that resembles the good old blues sound you hear from the 50's and 60's. I bought a couple of '50's Tweed amps and I had the tone. From what I can hear, most of the Fender tweed amps have a very similar sound and the biggest difference is in their power rating and volume they can handle before they break up. Then I bought a black faced '60's Fender and got the classic 60's tone. I think the same holds true for the black faced amps. The circuits are all very similar.

If you like the old Marshall sound, you will probably have to search around for a good one and pay a pretty penny, but then your done with your search. The one thing that I have always believed is that it is the amp that makes the biggest difference, not the guitar. I see more people (and I used to do the same) go out and buy guitar after guitar looking for the holy grail of tone. I remember back when I tried out a new Strat in the music store and it sounded fantastic. I bought it on the spot. When I hooked it up to my 1980 (POS) Marhall half stack, it sounded horrible. The smart saleman knew to plug that guitar into a simple Fender Deluxe Reverb to make that guitar sound its best.

I have to admit I have recently become interested in making one more purchase. I think one of those old hollow body guitars with the single D'Armond pickup would sound great on my Bandmaster. Then I would have the sound from the 30's and 40's if I needed it.

One other thing; I have seen my guitars age and mellow with time and become more vintage sounding. I recently bought a new SRV Strat and love the way the guitar plays and sounds but I find myself going back to my '57 resissue Strat that I bought in 1987 because it has a more vintage tone now. So if you don't have 20 years of patience and you want a vintage tone, you are probably going to have to buy an older guitar. Thank God for my friend that sold me his 1963 Telecaster back in 1979. That guitar's tone is so sweet. The surprising thing is I think it comes mostly from the aged wood in the body and neck because nothing else is stock. Everything else has been replaced except the tuning keys. It has also been refinished at least 3 times but I have not found another Telecaster that comes close to its tone except another vintage Tele.

One more thing; stay away from the boxes and plug straight into a vintage amp. I will admit I use a EH LPB2ube stereo preamp sometimes to give me a little more punch and break up when I need it but I get derided for using it. The boxes are sure tone killers.