Rock | Gill & Steele | Don't Speak To Me

[aj113]

It's the first mix of this song and for some bizarre reason I'm happy with it.

[jeff225]

WOW!!!
Quick listen on PC speakers....Wow!
Will comment further when I get home tonight and listen on the D5s...

Jeff

[jetcon1]

It would be bizarre if you weren't happy with it. On AT M50s the drums could use some cockyness. You can decide for yourself if so and how to do it. Nice song, pretty much everything is good about it.

[aj113]

Heh, I'll need to open Elelphant and turn up the 'cockyness' setting to 11.........

[fHumble fHingaz]

Sounds great, AJ!

Main improvements I could suggest are in the low end - the bass is a bit muddy sounding & just covering up the kick a little - try cutting somewhere around 200hz, & maybe sidechaining a compressor to duck the bass during the kick hits. At present the bass is winning the battle with the kick drum, but I've found the sidechaining trick is a really cool way of getting both to co-exist.

[aj113]

Kick and Bass are EQ'd to peak at 100hz and 200 hz (approx) respectively so I'm inclined to think it's more of a level thing. (i.e. more kick needed) Thinking seriously about sidechaining though.

[fHumble fHingaz]

Kick and Bass are EQ'd to peak at 100hz and 200 hz (approx) respectively so I'm inclined to think it's more of a level thing. (i.e. more kick needed) Thinking seriously about sidechaining though.

The song reminded me of this band, so I was referencing the bottom end against this track - I can hear slightly more sub bass activity in my reference track, & there seems to be more clarity in the upper mids of the bass as well :

[aj113]

OK well, at the risk of offending, I've got to ask what is the philosphy behind using a reference track when appraising a BTR recording? I mean, how did you come to the conclusion that the extra sub bass activity in the reference track is a good thing - I am assuming that is what you are saying?

Just asking....

[fHumble fHingaz]

OK well, at the risk of offending, I've got to ask what is the philosphy behind using a reference track when appraising a BTR recording? I mean, how did you come to the conclusion that the extra sub bass activity in the reference track is a good thing - I am assuming that is what you are saying?

Just asking....

Not offended at all - good question...

Well, I was listening to the your mix, & my immediate thoughts were the ones I wrote down in reply. However, since I hadn't really listened to any finished mixes that evening which were comparable in sound, I felt it best to check whether or not my initial reactions were skewed by whatever I had been working on/listening to immediately prior to critiquing your mix. So I booted up my iTunes & went searching for a comparable song in my library - I've always loved the sound of that track (it was mixed by Kevin "Caveman" Shirley & produced by Mike Chapman) - & because it was a very similar (style/instrumentation/female rock vocals), I felt it would be a good way to "re-calibrate" my ears. When I listened to the reference track, it confirmed my initial impressions...

...& since I'm being fairly particular in this (as the track does sound great already), I felt it best to explain why I said what I did.

As to the specific query about extra sub-bass - the difference is pretty subtle, because it's only a small amount, but yes, I do think it's a good thing - to my ears, just getting a little more sub bass gives the mix some more "height" - fuller range from the lowest point to the highest points in the frequency spectrum.

I often reference commercial mixes when critiquing (as well as when mixing), because I find it helps me to get a feel for the particular genre. Sometimes the bashee says "I was going for the type of sound that Band X gets", so referencing Band X can sometimes be enlightening.

Having said that, I know you didn't cite any particular band or sound, & that's why I thought I'd explain myself by posting the clip....

...It's only an opinion, & I could be way off beam, but I thought the reference track was pretty much "in the ballpark" of what you were trying to achieve.

[dudermn]

Vocals aren't too clear :/ ex: 1.05 hot in your day. Something is going on with the H.
Guitar leads seem to lack definition can't hear the quick licks...they sound slushed.
2:42 "Big rockstar"....shows that the comp is pushing too hard. And that the vocals are too open :/ the singer sounds nerdy, not hot and sexy

Great space. Sounds like a really good live recording .
Bass sounds really 80s (thinking black velvet).

[aj113]

Vocals aren't too clear :/ ex: 1.05 hot in your day. Something is going on with the H.

Diction is the next aspect that we need work on. Sophie is young and inexperienced, she has done a very good job so far and we will be looking to go up a level for the next one.

2:42 "Big rockstar"....shows that the comp is pushing too hard. And that the vocals are too open :/ the singer sounds nerdy, not hot and sexy

I'm really not hearing any of this. I've listened to that section 10 times. What am I missing?

edit:
Ah wait....I think you may be hearing Sophie's vocal technique again, I don't think it's anything to do with the processing.

[aj113]

Not offended at all - good question...

Well, I was listening to the your mix, & my immediate thoughts were the ones I wrote down in reply. However, since I hadn't really listened to any finished mixes that evening which were comparable in sound, I felt it best to check whether or not my initial reactions were skewed by whatever I had been working on/listening to immediately prior to critiquing your mix. So I booted up my iTunes & went searching for a comparable song in my library - I've always loved the sound of that track (it was mixed by Kevin "Caveman" Shirley & produced by Mike Chapman) - & because it was a very similar (style/instrumentation/female rock vocals), I felt it would be a good way to "re-calibrate" my ears. When I listened to the reference track, it confirmed my initial impressions...

...& since I'm being fairly particular in this (as the track does sound great already), I felt it best to explain why I said what I did.

As to the specific query about extra sub-bass - the difference is pretty subtle, because it's only a small amount, but yes, I do think it's a good thing - to my ears, just getting a little more sub bass gives the mix some more "height" - fuller range from the lowest point to the highest points in the frequency spectrum.

I often reference commercial mixes when critiquing (as well as when mixing), because I find it helps me to get a feel for the particular genre. Sometimes the bashee says "I was going for the type of sound that Band X gets", so referencing Band X can sometimes be enlightening.

Having said that, I know you didn't cite any particular band or sound, & that's why I thought I'd explain myself by posting the clip....

...It's only an opinion, & I could be way off beam, but I thought the reference track was pretty much "in the ballpark" of what you were trying to achieve.

I guess that's fair enough, but what I'm really looking for when I post to BTR - especially from someone like your good self - is a gut reaction.

[dudermn]

It sounds like clipping....
Could be technique :/

[aj113]

Buggered if I can hear any clipping. Can anyone else hear it?

[bvadrums]

Sounds good on the laptop. Will check on real speakers. Nice job!

[Stan_Halen]

2:42 "Big rockstar"....shows that the comp is pushing too hard. And that the vocals are too open :/ the singer sounds nerdy, not hot and sexy

Great space. Sounds like a really good live recording .
Bass sounds really 80s (thinking black velvet).

Diction is the next aspect that we need work on. Sophie is young and inexperienced, she has done a very good job so far and we will be looking to go up a level for the next one.

I'm really not hearing any of this. I've listened to that section 10 times. What am I missing?

edit:
Ah wait....I think you may be hearing Sophie's vocal technique again, I don't think it's anything to do with the processing.

At about 2:39 it sounds to me like the tone/EQ/timbre of her voice changes ... like a low-pass kicked in, or you punched in with a different mic or changed settings. I didn't think it sounded like vocal technique, though possibly she shifted off-axis or something. Almost sounds like she picked up a cardboard tube and started singing through that for a spell (boxy sounding). At about 2:50 I think it shifts back to the original sound.

I think I'm hearing a similar effect at 3:20 with the guitars (maybe all instruments), and then at 3:40 with the guitar solo ... the tone seems low-passed: missing some air or high-end.

If you (dudermn) were referring to Alannah Myles' song "Black Velvet", I do hear some vocal and instrumental similarities between the two songs, though Velvet was slower tempo and bluesier of course.

[bvadrums]

Listening on decent cans now. Guitars, bass sound great to me, very idiomatic. Drums okay in an 80's sort of way. I agree with the general thought that the vocals are the weak link, but nothing leaps to mind to fix it. Other folks seem to have concrete suggestions, so I guess that's covered. Man, love those guitar sounds!

[aj113]

To be honest when a guy plays as good as that and his gear is a Dual Rectifier stack you would need your bollocks chopping off if you got that sound wrong. Took me literally 30 seconds - SM57, hit record, done. (bit of shelving afterwards).

[aj113]

At about 2:39 it sounds to me like the tone/EQ/timbre of her voice changes ... like a low-pass kicked in, or you punched in with a different mic or changed settings. I didn't think it sounded like vocal technique, though possibly she shifted off-axis or something. Almost sounds like she picked up a cardboard tube and started singing through that for a spell (boxy sounding). At about 2:50 I think it shifts back to the original sound.

I think I'm hearing a similar effect at 3:20 with the guitars (maybe all instruments), and then at 3:40 with the guitar solo ... the tone seems low-passed: missing some air or high-end........

I'm just not hearing any of it. Guess it's time to hang up my recording boots.

[aj113]

.... I agree with the general thought that the vocals are the weak link, but nothing leaps to mind to fix it. .........

Admittedly the song is just too big for her vocals, I advised this right at the beginning before we even got anywhere near recording vocals. It needs more of a whisky-swilling, chain-smoking Coverdale type of voice IMO, but that is not what I was working with, my job was to get the best results possible with the tools at my disposal.

[aj113]

OK Stan - the guitars at 3:20 - these are exactly the same guitars, same parts, same settings, same levels as the guitars in the intro, nothing is changed. So to your ears, do the 3:20 guitars sound any different to the intro guitars?

[bvadrums]

Admittedly the song is just too big for her vocals, I advised this right at the beginning before we even got anywhere near recording vocals. It needs more of a whisky-swilling, chain-smoking Coverdale type of voice IMO, but that is not what I was working with, my job was to get the best results possible with the tools at my disposal.

Yes, absolutely. Some of us have to suffer with our own voices, so I'm all for tooling the results. If it were me, I'd do the experimentation dance with eq/compression/verb/delay combinations to see if I could get her closer to the ballpark. Her voice reminds a bit of Rik Emmett of Triumph.

Do you have any alternate takes of the vocal? Double-tracking might beef it up, especially at the chorus.

[aj113]

.... If it were me, I'd do the experimentation dance with eq/compression/verb/delay combinations to see if I could get her closer to the ballpark.....

Yeah, done that already, you're hearing the results.

.... Her voice reminds a bit of Rik Emmett of Triumph......

Well now there's a strange thing. Rik is one of my all time favourite guitarists and songwriters. I told the guitarist that his first solo in this track (the 'clean' one) reminded me a lot of a Rik Emmett solo, but he has never heard anything by R.E. so it didn't really mean anything to him. It never occurred to me that Sophie also sounds a bit like R.E. too, but now that I have listened again, I see what you're getting at. But wait....if she sounds like Rik Emmett, that can't be a bad thing can it? I mean, he sang some pretty heavy stuff over the years. Come to think of it, this track would not sound out place on one of the later Triumph albums.....Thunder 7 maybe?

Do you have any alternate takes of the vocal? Double-tracking might beef it up, especially at the chorus.

Yeah it might, I have a personal dislike of doubletracked vocals though.

[Stan_Halen]

OK Stan - the guitars at 3:20 - these are exactly the same guitars, same parts, same settings, same levels as the guitars in the intro, nothing is changed. So to your ears, do the 3:20 guitars sound any different to the intro guitars?

The intro guitars and 3:20 sound the same, so I think I'm catching on now. At about 4:20 the guitar tone gets brighter again. From 3:20-4:20 I guess you used tone for mood, and reverb as well? That's really cool how it goes off in this other space for awhile, to give a different perspective. I got a VH "Panama" bridge vibe there ("yeah we're runnin' a little bit hot tonight").

I'm still hearing a vocal change from about 2:39 to 2:51, but I'm starting to think it is just a reverb-space or reverb-send change.

[Stan_Halen]

Well now there's a strange thing. Rik is one of my all time favourite guitarists and songwriters. I told the guitarist that his first solo in this track (the 'clean' one) reminded me a lot of a Rik Emmett solo, but he has never heard anything by R.E. so it didn't really mean anything to him. It never occurred to me that Sophie also sounds a bit like R.E. too, but now that I have listened again, I see what you're getting at. But wait....if she sounds like Rik Emmett, that can't be a bad thing can it? I mean, he sang some pretty heavy stuff over the years. Come to think of it, this track would not sound out place on one of the later Triumph albums.....Thunder 7 maybe?

The song does sound a bit Triumph Thunder 7 now that you mention it. I love "Spellbound" off that album. I think Sophie sounds a bit more Patty Smythe than Rik Emmett in her vocal timbre, but her singing style on this might be similar to Rik's.