Nightingale

[tZer]

I am posting this in response to a discussion in another thread regarding signal chain issues (http://forum.recordingreview.com/new...wreply&p=25797) - but also because I am interested in constructive critique.

I want to explain myself until the cows come home, but I won't. Suffice it to say I am a beginner and I am sure my work product reflects that.

This was, however, a one-take recording that we laid down to test out our newly reconfigured signal chain. (Singer laid down his vocal track as an overdub and I added the rather odd sounding backups at home using a cheap-ass computer mic just to get the idea down).

These are also 'bed tracks' and there are still many parts to be laid - a horn section, real backups, lead tracks, etc...

OK... what was I saying about no excuses?

Nightingale

I am using Sonar PE 6 and we record in a basement using a studio setup I am slowly cobbling together to allow us to play together as we normally do, but capture each instrument on it's own tracks for further production and arrangement. All this is toward the goal of making us better composers, arrangers and producers so we can make really effective use of our time and money if and when we head to a 'real' studio.

--tz

[jclampitt]

overall it sounds pretty good to me, except of course for the obvious noise in the beginning, when the singer starts singing, and then it is made more obvious by the fact that you cut it out in between lines(or you're using a noise gate) its not noticable in the rest of the song when there is more background music. my suggestion is that if you can't rerecord the vocal without noise, leave the noise in without cutting it out between lines, i would even let it start at the beginning of the song so that it doesn't just kick in when the vocal track does. If the noise is just present the whole time it won't be half as noticable as if it starts and stops with the vocal.

[S Cavell]

I agree with the above statement.(actually I'm not sure I'm
picking up on the noise) I thinks the reverb of the cymbal panned
left a bit? My headphones bite btw. so ...
nice song, I can hear the mix clearly throughout
for the most part. There's a little hickup in the snare or cymbal
at around 4:03 into the track, but I figure you're probably not
completely finished yet so. It will improve from this point I'm sure.

[brandondrury]

I find the gate on the voice distracting. There is some noise in there, but personally I'd rather have the noise than hear the ON and OFF sound. You can decide what you think, but as I've written in my first book this week a thousand times "It Is What It Is".

I'm not sure how I feel about the panning in the beginning. I realize you are going for something natural here, so I'm not sure if what I'm going to suggest will work or not. It's worth trying. I don't like the piano being hard panned in the beginning. It makes me feel "weird". It also forces the vocal to the left. I would TRY the piano in the center and then pan it hard when the guitar comes in. I think this would be less distracting. It may sound strange though.

It sounds like the drummer is really going easy on the snare drum. The right cymbal is dominating the drum mix in the choruses. Your drummer should address this and I'd move the mic in a way that doesn't accent the ride so much.

I really like the song. I really like the overall tones you've got. If you contain the excessively bright sound of that ride cymbals, I think you'd be in business.

Great job!!! This songs feels REALLY good!

Brandon

[tZer]

Thanks all! I appreciate and agree with everything you all are saying.

One of the things I wanted to avoid was making a lot of excuses. My goal in the project was to put up recordings without having to qualify things I know are out of whack.

As I was saying in my little prologue, these tracks were the result of 2 hours of me plugging and patching, getting a headphone mix that was OK, and dealing with all those other 'I am new at this gear tweaking things' dealt with. So at the end of 2 hours, we has 1/2 hour to do something. So I said, "Hey, let's just shoot through 'Nightingale' and see what we get." We did - 1 run through - and that's what we got. Then JJ showed up (our singer) and we had him track in some vocals but not using the optimal mic or dealing with a vocal setup - he just grabbed a mic the keyboard player was using to sing scratch and laid down his vocals. Hence all the noise.

I took these tracks home and was using "Lady Madonna" from LOVE, a CD of remixed Beatles songs, as a reference track because that particular song has the same instrumentation and general feel as this one and because we are all Beatles fans... And I happened to notice the extreme panning that was done in this production. It surprised me - and I wanted to see how that played out for our song.

Knowing that there are still horns, percussion, lead and color guitar parts and backup vocals scheduled, I panned the rest of the instruments as I did. The horns and leads will occupy the 'spaces' left by the way things were panned on the rhythm tracks.

I avoided starting with the piano center because I was concerned about having instruments 'move around' in the mix.

I appreciate all the feedback! We are actually going to be re-tracking everything as this is exactly why we set up our little studio - so we could lay stuff down, give it a good listen, make good comments and editing decisions, come back and do it again - for no money!! It's just going to take us a long time to produce an album's worth of material - but we are in no hurry. We just want the music to sound good.

[ferguson66]

Originally Posted by tZer

We are actually going to be re-tracking everything as this is exactly why we set up our little studio - so we could lay stuff down, give it a good listen, make good comments and editing decisions, come back and do it again - for no money!! It's just going to take us a long time to produce an album's worth of material - but we are in no hurry. We just want the music to sound good.

This is exactly what I am doing also. We are all new to playing with others and I am new to recording so I have been spending a lot of time recording things, putting them together and getting feedback to apply on my next go around.

I am downloading Nightingale right now (slow internet connection) but will give er a listen when it finishes. Curious to see how your mic placement did.

I posted the new version of "Never" in recording reviews, give it a listen when you get a chance. I am going to re-record that when I feel I have a solid foundation.

[ferguson66]

It finally downloaded! I really like this tune, it is one of those songs that if you listen to more than a few times you get hooked.

As a drummer I have to say that I am missing the backbeat. To me I think the snare should cut through a lot more to create that backbeat that keeps the song moving forward and gives the listener that foundation to tap their foot to.

Curious, did the snare have a mic on it or where you picking it up on an overhead?

But yes, this is going to be a great song, keep us updated on the progress, I would love to hear it when you get the horns and everything in there.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by ferguson66

As a drummer I have to say that I am missing the backbeat. To me I think the snare should cut through a lot more to create that backbeat that keeps the song moving forward and gives the listener that foundation to tap their foot to.

Curious, did the snare have a mic on it or where you picking it up on an overhead?

But yes, this is going to be a great song, keep us updated on the progress, I would love to hear it when you get the horns and everything in there.

Thanks! We think the song has a lot of potential and I hope that after I write the horns and backups and get them recorded, the song will really take on a strong identity. It's already pretty hooky - but I have some counter melody ideas that will play out both in the horns (a sax-heavy horn part) and backup vocals.

The drums are interesting. My drummer is a rather unique player in that his "thing" is very percussion oriented. So his parts tend to sound like more than one drummer playing - a drummer and percussionist.

What he did on this tune was have his reponic (pronounced Hep'on'eek - the drum that sounds like a timbale) between his snare and hi-hat when recording. He used the reponic like you would normally use the snare.

After mixing, I found that the tone of that drum tended to pull focus away from the beat, as you say. We decided that he is going to redo his part in 2 phases - one phase will be back-beat-centric... the fundamental part of the beat that includes the kick, SNARE, and hat.

Then he'll track a second, percussion part that will bring the reponic in a little - but not nearly as present as it is currently.

Also - his kick part is a constant string of 1/8ths... which tends to fill up to room a little too much. So his new 'back-beat' part will include a new, less busy kick drum part too.

All this in an effort to open up the density a little and provide more room for the song to breathe in general.

My bass line is going to be redone too along with all the rest of the parts. Our next run at it will focus on making the rhythm track much more open and spacious so the vocals, backups and counter melodies won't have to fight for air.

Thanks for listening!

[brandondrury]

What he did on this tune was have his reponic (pronounced Hep'on'eek - the drum that sounds like a timbale) between his snare and hi-hat when recording. He used the reponic like you would normally use the snare.

That's all great an all, but there is something to be able to hear the damn snare.

These percussionist drummer types have always be tough for the kind of music I typically record. I come from the "power drumming" side of the fence in most instances. Keep working with him. There will be a happy median between his percussion and getting the snare to cut through the song.

Brandon

[tZer]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

That's all great an all, but there is something to be able to hear the damn snare.

These percussionist drummer types have always be tough for the kind of music I typically record. I come from the "power drumming" side of the fence in most instances. Keep working with him. There will be a happy median between his percussion and getting the snare to cut through the song.

Brandon

Right - which is why the very next comment was:

Originally Posted by tzer

After mixing, I found that the tone of that drum tended to pull focus away from the beat, as you say. We decided that he is going to redo his part in 2 phases - one phase will be back-beat-centric... the fundamental part of the beat that includes the kick, SNARE, and hat.

This band in general has been playing as a "live" band would - all together - the part is as is (no thought of overdubs or breaking a single part into multiple parts, etc...) and we need to re-train to be more studio-centric and think like a studio band - in layers.

We also need to overcome the common tendency to pour all ingredients in at one time (overplay) which tends to be a byproduct of being a more "live" band. Because this recording was the result of a long night of tech-tinkering and was the first time we actually got to play, we were all 'throwing ourselves' at our parts just for the sake of playing. There was no real intent or attention being paid to the finer details - we were just 'having a go' that happened to turn out not half-bad. Definitely good enough to mix and play with to see how the song fleshed out in general.

I have a litany of mixing notes based on this mix that we are currently chewing through. Tonight I will be with the drummer and we will be doing our '2 phase' recording of his part. I am going to have him play along with this recording but focus on his 'back-beat' part first making sure his kick part is well-defined and not as frenetic and we have already pulled the reponic from the kit so that this pass would be snare-only - and the snare would be crackin'!

We'll then run a second take where he'll focus on the percussion end - shakers, reponic, congas, etc... the 'non-back-beat' aspects. This will also provide me with the ability to spread and separate the kit from the percussion.

Thanks again!