Kind of bash this...

[richiebee]

Okay, this project is done and buried, but I'm doing another with the same singer this weekend... as far as I know, just her and piano. I'm looking for suggestions for avoiding the sibilance which I can't seem to get rid of without losing something vital from the sound. I've tried de-esser's, I've tried multi-band compressors, I've tried EQ. I'm not sure what to do... maybe mic set up? My only choices for mic are AKG C414 or Neumann KM184. I might use both, it's not like I don't have the channels available. Any other tips? Since the room is reverberant and the piano and voice will perform together, the only way to maximize separation is to use a pattern like cardioid... would you put up with spill and try one of the other patterns from the C414, or would you try and make the best from the cardioid pattern?

It may be quite different from what you're used to... I love this girl's voice.

www.richiebee.ca/swallow.mp3

Brandon... here's some of that big room reverb!

Rich

[brandondrury]

On these terrible computer speakers (which will soon be upgraded) I'm not hearing problems with simblance. If you are hearing these things, I would definitely not use a small diaphram condenser. Their very fast transient times seam to make the problem worse.

I've not done this sort of genre, but these days I don't feel bad about ass crush fucking the vocal with compression. I'll hit 12dB of reduction sometimes and not flinch. I'm sure this music calls for less, but from what my ear is used to, it could use more than you have. Just a thought. I could be wrong. You should decide that one.

I hear her voice get a little harsh from time to time. Harsh as in a 2Khz kind of way. Not horrible, but it's occassional. Compression may smooth that out. Maybe bumping 100-200Hz some would help (maybe not). I've used a Waves C4 dynamic EQ to decent success with this sort of thing before.

I'm not sure about the space the singer is in. If you are you using a plugin, I'd do something different... maybe less early reflections. If you are not using a plugin, I have no idea what to tell you.

Just one other thought, for better or worse. Why do you need seperation? Are you going to overdub? You should have the balls to at least attempt to get a sound that doesn't need seperation. In other words, have you considered using the 414 in Omni or Figure 8 mode? It may not work, but it may be worth a try.

Let me know if I've totally ruined your recording. Let us know what you ended up doing and how it worked.

Oh yeah, simblance. Turning the mic off axis just a little can do wonders... sometimes too much. You may not have the option, but I've heard stories of engineers lowering the mic to actually point towards the throat. It's deeper sounding and combined with the off axis thing it can really knock off the simblance.

Brandon

[richiebee]

Just one other thought, for better or worse. Why do you need seperation? Are you going to overdub? You should have the balls to at least attempt to get a sound that doesn't need seperation. In other words, have you considered using the 414 in Omni or Figure 8 mode? It may not work, but it may be worth a try.

You're probably right, though monitoring won't be the best in this situation (no protools on this one... it's in a different space), so I kind of need to know I'm getting something that won't have phasing issues all over the place. Maybe I'll take a gamble... I'm definitely going to try a few things.

Oh yeah, simblance. Turning the mic off axis just a little can do wonders... sometimes too much. You may not have the option, but I've heard stories of engineers lowering the mic to actually point towards the throat. It's deeper sounding and combined with the off axis thing it can really knock off the simblance.

I think this is probably what I needed to hear. I'm going to try some of this stuff if it becomes an issue.

Thanks, I'll be sure to let you know how it turns out.

Rich

[brandondrury]

Keep me posted.

Sometimes having too many options is a problem in itself. When you face limitations, I think you can actually do better work (in many cases).

You are obviously, going to have to focus on mic placement. You can't just grab a different mic. I think there is a middle ground and you can come up with great sounding, natural recording with the mics you have mentioned.

Hell, maybe the 414 in omni is all you need.

Brandon

[richiebee]

Well, we did the session yesterday. The first thing that struck me was how much my beloved KM183's sucked on a different piano! Both 9 foot grands, but this was Yamaha, the other was Kawai. The Yamaha is so frigging noisy! Anyway, for the voice, I started by setting up two C414's, one in omni, the other in fig8. The omni sucked. The fig 8 I thought worked nicely.

She's listening to rough mixes tonight so that we can decide which takes to use and whether any cuts need to be made. Here is a sample - the mixing is the result of about 10 minutes work, but I think its nice anyway and don't think I'd do much different.

www.richiebee.ca/mel_k.mp3

The set up ended up...

Grand Piano - 2x Neumann KM 183's
Ambience - 2x C414 on omni at a distance of about 40 feet from the stage, and hanging from a catwalk, at about halfway floor to ceiling.
Voice - C414 on fig8

... just in case, I also used two KM184's (cardioid) which permanently hang as a stereo pair. I used a tiny bit of them, but not enough to really notice.

Rich

[brandondrury]

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS???? HOLY SHIT!!!!!

This sounds like the soundtrack to my dream where my penis has detached from my body, assembled a large Army, and has crossed the 49th parallel. Wow!!!

I've never heard anything like it in my life. So, it's hard to have any reference. I think the chaos of the song is well represented. So that means you did your job.

Brandon

[richiebee]

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS???? HOLY SHIT!!!!!

This sounds like the soundtrack to my dream where my penis has detached from my body, assembled a large Army, and has crossed the 49th parallel. Wow!!!

I've never heard anything like it in my life. So, it's hard to have any reference. I think the chaos of the song is well represented. So that means you did your job.

Brandon

That's f***ing opera for you.

R.

[brandondrury]

I had no idea THAT was opera. Amazing. That would explain your huge concert hall room. I asked you a question about that under the "audio engineering" post.

Brandon

[Deng]

I love her voice...this mix seems perfect for the style, I love it.

-Deng

[Vertigo]

Sounds great to me - I don't hear any sibilance problems whatsoever. Personally, I find the vocal dynamics just a little overpowering and I'd use a bit of compression to try and tame that.

BTW, the C4 is a multiband compressor, NOT an EQ, and is the devil in a lot of ways. If you're using it as an EQ then you're trying to slap a band-aid on a broken mix.

-Lance

[brandondrury]

Hey Vertigo,

I could have swore that the C4 was a dynamic equalizer. I reality, a dynamic EQ is not any different than a multiband compressor except for the lack of ratio settings on an EQ. Wait, the C4 doesn't have a ratio setting.

I'm I wrong?

Brandon

[Geisler]

I'm looking for suggestions for avoiding the sibilance which I can't seem to get rid of without losing something vital from the sound. I've tried de-esser's, I've tried multi-band compressors, I've tried EQ.?

You could always go in and manually edit the S's. Sure, it's labor-intensive, but it won't adversely effect the vitality of the rest of the track. You could at least start with the worst ones and keep plugging away until you totally lose your mind and need to stop.

[brandondrury]

I wouldn't consider it to be that tedious. I guess it depends on how hard you work on your mixes. The big boys are taking 12 hours per song. I work a little differently since I can save my work and pull up the exact same mix, but I have no problem spending 3 hours of my own time on a song.

Brandon

[Geisler]

Not tedious if it's a 2:30 pop song. Tedious if it's an entire opera. He never told us how long this piece is.

[brandondrury]

Good point.

Brandon