"Hello" Emma Caiman

[dudermn]

Poped it up on my mp4 player, a walk in the woods at 2 am should be interesting.

What was implied in my response was that this song is what darth vader would listen to while taking a bath... Not what Lindsy Lohan props up for her morning tea.

[Snail]

I like this song a lot, but I think it could be improved quite a bit, not just in terms of the mix (I agree with the comments about dynamics -- not that you should squish it, necessarily, but that it jumps all over the place, sometimes in a way that's good but sometimes in a way that detracts from the song, IMHO), but also some of the performance on the lead vocal. Since most people have already covered the mix, I'll explain what I mean by the performance.

It's an impassioned performance, and a really good one, but in some places I'm not sure about the vocal line -- it's choppy and sometimes transitions from muttering to almost shouting. The problem here is not dynamics, principally, but the way the line is broken up. Even if you want to keep the dynamics of certain lines, I would still think it would be worth experimenting with different ways of singing them in a way that connects the notes in a more seamless way (not necessarily legato -- I'm not saying that). Just to give a concrete example: at 2:47 you have a line that goes "and the children...sapping need" which seems all over the place. I think that reworking lines like this would result in more effective communication of emotion, not less. To some extent, it's a matter of taste, but I think that you have a really good song here with a lot of potential, but it's being held back a bit by some of the choices you're making in how you're singing certain lines. I wish I could be more precise, but my main suggestion would be (and maybe you've already done this, in which case I apologize) to listen carefully to each line and ask yourself if that's the best way to sing it, or if there are other possibilities worth exploring in terms of delivery.

Hope this makes sense!

Oh, just a small thing -- Are the backing vocals at 1:34 flat? They sound a bit strange to me.

[Emma]

Some interesting comments thanks!
I've played around with this quite a bit now and have posted a 'tweaked' version at the beginning of the thread. It is basically more 'smoothed', perhaps you may not even perceive a difference but I do feel happier with it. I did a lot of small things. I had a kajaerhus limiter on the 2-bus for the first version, and it's a trap I've fallen into before, where I add it at the very end and then don't listen to it thoroughly to pick the distortion it can cause for the louder bits plus creating issues with the reverb. I've cut that right back to only a smudge of an effect. I just didn't like the compressor on the 2-bus, no matter what I did, it took away the immediacy of the performance. I'm wanting a raw edge, but not hideously raw.. I did have fun with the delays...
(The vocal tuning was intentionally crooked, like the windows.. And the 'hello' that was perhaps really a 'goodbye')

Thanks again for the feedback

[kakeux]

I'm late on this one...so i just listened to mix 2.

Well I like it. This is strangely lovely.

[m24p]

It sounds like you EQed the main piano a bit differently, cutting out some of the low mids. It sounds smoother now. This is still a lovely song.

[Btonning]

Hey Emma, I love it as usual!! you are so unique sounding and write such cool tunes.. I love the experimentation! And your voice... there is no other like it.. great job! keep on being you and everything will be ok!!

[dudermn]

Spent some time listening to Hello, finally.
It's a great song. With a profound message hidden under the lyrical context.

Though the flash could never listen too this :/ Him or techno viking

The song as is, both A-B, is like a conjuring of sorts Like some Egyptian ritualistic hymn.

The panned voices are great, and the errors I noticed are really to small to mention. Except for, as always
The slight cut out at the end of most words, though the reverb helps mask it, is prudently conspicuous.

Mastering though, can alter a song greatly.

[Emma]

Helloo again mr d...
thanks for taking the time to give me some more feedback
te he... I wasn't really aiming for a techno viking vibe but y'never know what I'm gonna come up with next...
Am not sure what you mean by :

The slight cut out at the end of most words, though the reverb helps mask it, is prudently conspicuous.

coz I'm most particularly about ending words 'properly'... being one of the legacies of classical training that I can't seem to move on from...
Praps it's my kiwi accent and my careful diction that are confounding you???

[redworks]

hey emma, hello. what can i say i enjoyed what you have done with the song. i feel like you have stuck with your vision but taken the suggestions and made that vision come through even more beautifully. there is the uncomfortable done in a way that moves me because of the song not because i was disturbed with how it was mixed. the second mix has made the mixing less visible and let the song do the talking. well done.

[Emma]

Thanks so much for your comments redworks... I'm working kinda hard at this stuff and it is a strange business sometimes - so many different perspectives!
I'm really appreciating that I can now listen to all the view points and still hold onto my own 'acoustic vision' while taking onboard the bits that connect and enable...
Makes me chuckle sometimes how damned hard it all is... I had thought that it would all be blissfully easy!!

[dudermn]

The first 'hiccup' is on the letter U...
The second is barely noticeable, but still got my attention.
The third isn't a mistake, I like the breathing between words
4th one sounds stuttered a little at the end....
And the last thing was something I originally thought was an error that turned out clean after it was slowed down

Being this pretentious isn't really helpful.
I'm not playing any live gigs for example because I haven't found a w@rm place to put my ears down.

There might or might not be anymore 'artifacts' in the song
.

p.s. can you tell if this a or b ?

[Emma]

O dear...
(shakes head in distracted fashion and goes to make a cup of tea)
um..
(bewildered sort of glazed expression crosses facial features)
ackcherlly...
it feels a little bit creepy...
That's enough now thanks!

[dudermn]

Don't mention it. I like audio engineering

And I've spent about 5 months with the same headphones on day-in day-out.... When I get my hands on a P.A. system it's Nirvana (literally blasting .

So ya, as mentioned. The reverb does cover those up, there are to few and pretty much no-one will notice. The fix is simple, longer release on the compressor

[Gains]

I came in very late, maybe too late, but so what, maybe you read this some day

Lots and lots of years ago I was working with an opera singer on one of my hard rock songs (with some opera parts) and she sounded absolutely amazing when she jammed and learned the song, just her with her powerful voice and me with my guitar, I liked that very much!

But it was un-recordable, she was to powerful, the dynamic was extreme, the soft parts were almost undetectable and the loud parts were just wild, but damn so sweet, but as soon as I started to record her my microphone caught fire, hehe, not really, but her voice was SO powerful that I had no chance in hell to record her voice and back then compressors were forbidden.
But, I wanted her voice on the track cos I loved that fantastic voice, so what did I do?
I told her to back off a bit and by that I mean back of as in taking a step back at the loud parts.
It worked out great so we recorded another song the same night.

Your voice reminds me of her and in fact, I like the first version better!
I like the power of raw un-edited music, but I also understand that when it's time to record it's impossible to cut off the loud parts without destroying the feel of the performance, so my advice is this, just back off a bit at the louder parts, tilt your head, turn away, but don't change anything on this song it's already perfect!

I'm well aware of that in these "modern" times the music should sound flat and dead, but I hate that, I want the dynamics, I want the soft parts, loud parts, that's what makes the song feel alive and amazing.

I've listened to Hello now about 20 times and damnit I love it!

However, nothing in this world is really perfect and here's what I would change on your song, right at the start of the song the piano is really off the beat, it sounds like your finger tripped on the keyboard the same at 0.16, it is disturbing and it's never a good thing to have glitches right from the start, especially tempo glitches, but that's it, don't change nada zip zero, revert to your first version, it's beautiful!

I took me the liberty to download it cos I want to hear at my own convenience, I hope that's Okey

Don't change anything, it's You!

[Emma]

Hi there Gains,
thanks so much for your comments - they mean heaps!
I'm getting better at turning my head away from the mic but sometimes when I get in the zone, I just blast the the poor thing so I'm recording at much lower levels than when I started. Making musical connections is my key driver so I really value your feedback
ta!

[dudermn]

I've listened to Hello now about 20 times and damnit I love it!

I have listened to it more

[Gains]

Hi there Gains,
thanks so much for your comments - they mean heaps!
I'm getting better at turning my head away from the mic but sometimes when I get in the zone, I just blast the the poor thing so I'm recording at much lower levels than when I started. Making musical connections is my key driver so I really value your feedback
ta!

I usually never comment on other peoples songs but Hello is unique and I really wanted you to know that and that you shouldn't change a thing, (except for the piano tripping, hehe).
I think that we, composers, musicians, must defend our music in any way we can and the first step is to stop the sound engineer from destroying our music.
Who do they think they are?

They are just hired guns and their job is to do their job, record the song, nothing else!
I know that the record companies demands that the songs should be loud, dead and flat, well, if that's what they want they can write their owns songs!
We are the composers and if they want to make money on our songs they should take it or leave it, that's why I've turned down the music industry so far.

One time they actually told me too change the word "fucking" to "rocking", I told them, what-the-fuck, the line is "fucking force" and that means a hell of a force, it's got nothing to do with sex, but before they had time to think about it I told them to fuck it, hehe.
I never compromise.

I do this for my own enjoyment but on some occasions I accidentally stumpled into the industry thru friends and that's when I got the offers.
Everything was set and ready to go, the artist WANTED the song really badly and there was a nice sum of money for me, and then.......they wanted to change a word, no thanks.

On another occasion I got a call from an artist who have heard one my songs (also thru friends) and she asked me if she could include it on her next album cos she "LOVED IT", sure I said, no problem, do your thing!
I didn't even mention money or anything, just do it.
The next day I got a new call from her, she had talked to her company and they had decided a neat sum to secure the rights to record the song, fine, that's cool, no problem, I said.
The day after that she calls me again.....................and now she wanted to change the melody, and she sang the new melody over the phone, (she had changed 2 notes), what do you think, she asked?
I said, didn't you just "LOVED IT?
Yes.
So why do you wanna change it?
I want the melody to have my own "touch".
I said, fine, write your own song, the deal is off!

I never compromise

I have loads of examples, it's always the same thing, the singer (male or female) always want to do "their thing", well fine, do that, but do it on your own songs.
We have the right to defend our music.
And if we defend it hard enough, the industry must accept our terms or else it's chapter 11 for them.

Sorry about the long "speach" but as a composer/musician I actually get offended (pissed off really) when people starts to meddle with things that they have no right to meddle with.
We are the ones providing the industry with material so that they can make money.......so, is it too much to ask that we have the right to protect our compositions?
No, of course not

So Emma, do your thing and be proud of what you accomplished
Sure, you can "sell out" and do what they want, but keep your own versions in a safe place cos they are the original, the rest is just covers

[GrooveMaster]

I think the best tip you had is to back off when singing. I was listening with headphones and it was just to much. if you have the chance to look at a concert of Marvin Gaye, this guy knows how to work a mic. and dont be afraid to loose emotion when you back off, you will still hear it. if you can do it when in the zone, you wont have this problem that is hard to fix without messing it up.

maybe a second remark: cut those high mids in the voice! if you have bright music it can be useful to have them but with your ´darkish´piano you dont need that (I like dark btw, I am one of these guys that find modern music too bright...). the piercing frequencies are between 4-6kHz I guess. and if you fear it will be too dark, add some 10-12 kHz, it will still be bright but ´airy´bright. or mabe try another mic? I made the same mistake once....I have a lot of mikes not just to have them (although...) but not every mic works on everything, especially with voices. but the same thing goes for bassdrums for example.

maybe a third one?: the vocal panning effects should be smaller I think, as a mixer you dont have to draw attention to yourself (serve the music!), just make the people feel there is something wrong or weird, dont push it. I always think when you hear an effect, it is too much.

fourth one? try putting a little reverb on the voice not to have reverb but to push your voice back in the mix.

and dont care that people find this or that synthetic or wrong soundwise, if you dont believe me listen to Billy Holliday with Strange Fruit, the sounds sucks (hey it was 1939....). and at first I found it bad but then I listened to emotions of the voice and the song became a favourite of mine. if people hear emotions (and you have them) they dont care for the other things, then it is just dressing so dont fret about it. a mixer should mix and respect the work or opinion of the artist, the artist is the boss ,that is my view and not just because I write and play music myself but all the big guys say the same (Bruce Swedien for example)

and please dont second guess yourself, if you find your song to be perfect than that is the only thing that matters, that creates real music and not some prefab music to make money.

maybe this will float on the internet without someone reading it, so be it. I know my views are somewhat different so if you (whoever you may be) find something usefull, use it and discard the rest.

[Emma]

Crikey... haven't listened to this one for a while
Thanks a bunch for listening and taking the time to comment Gains and GrooveMaster. It's all a learning curve for me. Will re-visit this mix sometime, now I'm getting better reverb sounds through my valhalla room combo (checkout the verb on my brand new dark xmas mix http://forum.recordingreview.com/f16...tml#post387400)
While I make music essentially for ME, I am keen to make it accessible to anyone interested in listening, which means that endless tweaking journey. I really appreciate your comments

[Gains]

I like the sound on Dark Dreams of Christmas and just like before with "Hello" I like the dynamics, to get the vocal to sound powerful you/we need to keep the dynamics, compression is a big friggeling no-no in my book, maybe some limiting to smooth it off slightly, but no compression pukatronic, örrk
In other words, the low volume parts should stay low as is, and the higher parts could be slightly shaved, but not much, keep the vocal alive

On todays "modern" to-death squashed songs the vocals are absolutely terrible, not to mention the rest of the instruments, I want the songs to feel alive, and you surely succeed in that, nice work Emma

A Merry Bright Christmas from the dynamic freak Gains

[Emma]

tehe Thanks dynamic freakeroo Gains
I am pretty happy with the way I'm managing the dynamics overall but am very aware that my sound fluctuation drives purist sound engineers nuts... but.. they are not my target audience and so I enjoy (mostly ) the feedback and work out if there are bits that suit me or not. With my Dark Christmas song, I deliberately wanted the vocal to bite and disturb, spent rather a lot of time nudging volumes and tweaking stuff to achieve that result. I love the way that in the end, the music is for me and that they are my songs and I can do what I like with them... yay.. creative freedom.
My songs are not mainstream so mainstream rules don't necessarily suit me... but... yes, have a huge amount of learning to do so that I can experiment more. Very refreshing to get your feedback

[Gains]

And it's very refreshing to hear you music
The way you design your music is how it should be designed.
Back in the days before sound engineers came to life the music was alive, not that I hate engineers, not at all, but they do tend to try to control the recordings a little bit too much, I guess they know what the record industry wants so they kill the music right from the start by crushing it with anti-dynamics gear.
I like the independent artists, the ones who don't give a rats skidoodle about "rules", but if these independent artists should get their song played on the radio it will still get killed by anti-dynamics cos that what they do, they squash it dead, it's terrible.

I will stay independent until I die, then if my relatives will try to seel my music, fine, as long as they follow my last will, "No anti-dynamics on my music or I will haunt you forever"

I really hope the engineers in here doesn't hate me, it's just how I feel about music
Maybe we should try to remaster one of your songs using all the anti-dynamics gear at the same time, just to have a hysterical laugh
I will continue to follow you and cheer/defend your musical freedom, but if you for one moment steps out from the path and into the anti-dynamics world, I will try my hardest to get you back on track again by teasing you to death, "Emma, the artists who entered The Twilight Zone"

Stay real and honest

[GrooveMaster]

Some people here were no sound engineer from the beginning but were and still are muscians studying jazz and were/are listening to classical music.
And please dont put all these soundengineers in the same ballpark because they are not.

I agree that people use way too much compression without even knowing why (CLA uses lots of it!) or what it does to their sound (ok thats the engineer talking). and then I am not even talking about the horrible popular music nowadays which I know very little of because I cant hear it anymore and switched to classical or old skool jazz.

I never use compression, only to make quiet things louder without makeup gain (mm, shouldnt it be the opposite?)....but I have told that before I think? damn, I´m whining again...

Maybe Quoting Bruce Swedien (the guy from Thriller etc and also someone that studied piano till his twenties) will be more effective:
Compression is for kids!

Maybe I now will be banned from RR for using such a statement...

But you are also right that those engineers just have to do their job and the must not be telling the musician how to make his/her music.

That why I give my opinion but also tell people to follow their own guts....and if they decide to my find my opinions rubbish, so be it, I can take it. the engineer has to serve to muscians and not the other way around, some people look funnily at me when I say such things.

So there is no hate, I never tell musicians what to do, unless they ask me.

Maybe some of use should start a record label: ´Aint loud enough? Turn up the volume!´

just follow your heart and shoot the engineers! ;-)

[Gains]

´Aint loud enough? Turn up the volume!´

I too listen to classical music and I often use classical parts in my music cos I like them so damn much, the classical parts that is
But will the loudness war eventually kill that music too?
Well I think it will, eventually, cos sooner or later there will be people fiddling with the buttons when they remaster an old Vivaldi concert and when the brickwall limiting madness hits these recordings this will be the future reference and so on and on.
It will be like back in the days when synthesizers only had one "volume", every note had the same volume, pukatronic.
Same thing with jazz recordings, I hope Miles haunt the the loudness people to death

These posts should be better suited in a thread about brickwall limitin, Brandon had something going on but I don't know if that's out yet, anyhoo, this madness has to stop in my humble opinion and the only way to stop it is to stop doing it, easy
Just tell the listeners to turn the volume up.

Preserve the dynamics, keep the music alive.

Have a look at this:
Dynamic Range Day

I know the engineers knows everything about this already, but I think they have to do what they are told by the industry, maybe the engineers should talk back some more, give the industry a hard time?
I respect what the engineers are doing and I respect the engineers cos they are nice helpful people, and I hope I havent offended anyone cos that wasnt my intention at all
But we all should try to respect the music too, and fight for it to sound alive and well in the future.

Sorry Emma for tainting your wonderful music with music politics

[GrooveMaster]

Yep, I know Dynamic Range Day.

But I agree, lets cut the crap about dynamics (not that dynamics are crap, just the debating of it, how can you not need dynamics?) and return back to topic: Emmas Music! that stands on its own and doesnt need all this commotion. Sorry Emma for the politics...

I have got a lot to say about the loudness wars or the excessive use of compressors but I wont, let Brandon do his thing or maybe I should start a topic? Dont know if I am brave enough...

so again: Dear visitor: what do you think of Emmas music? ;-) and leave your engineering hat at the door.