"Hello" Emma Caiman

**Emma** · 06-11-2012, 08:49 PM

I've been playing around with this song for a bit. Would appreciate your feedback.

Just added a 'tweaked' version...
mix 2

**Dave March** · 06-12-2012, 04:38 AM

Hi Emma,

This is not the kind of song that 'does it for me' personally but I can hear you've put a lot of work into it. I think I can hear strings in the background and some other instrument? Whatever they are it's a nice touch and I would make them a little more prominent. The piano needs to be a little bright I feel but I'll leave that to the more experienced engineers amongst us

What happened at 1.34? Is that the effect you wanted because it sounds to me as if the harmonies are way out! Also at 3.28, but the first occurrence is much worse in my opinion.

I'm assuming this is an original composition, so well done.

**Bigduggieface** · 06-12-2012, 06:37 AM

This is good stuff. Big fan of the vocal performances and the chord changes. There is beauty in this simplicity. Love the lyrics and I hang on every word.

I don't agree with Dave about the "way out" harmonies. The pitches seem to me to move with the composition and they work in the final analysis. They provide a wonderful background tapestry.

The piano sounds good, but my complaints would lie with the tone of the other 'instruments'. The strings and pitched percussion sounds could be accused of being synthetic and 90's sounding. They are there almost as ghosts. The pitches are there, but the timbre is almost indiscernible.

The song and the performances are so good that these complaints are easily overlooked. Lovely song. Hello.

**Emma** · 06-12-2012, 12:48 PM

Thanks for the feedback!! Really appreciate it...
Yep, I'm being a bit subtle/experimental here, it IS a sort of ghost song and I had deliberately gone for an uncomfortable vibe for the backing vocals. Sort of conventional 'sweet' (??) voice, piano and then a 'huh?' moment where something nudges you in a bit of a disturbing way. Its the first time I've used a plain synth string sound, usually I strive for authenticity but wanted a sort of stretched synthetic creeeak so am guessing I've acheived that but may need to emphasise it a little more... hmmm, thinks... I've also got a 'withering piano' in there which gives the percussive sounds.
It's the first time I've used variable speed autopan on the backing and I'd aimed for a sort of restless floating thing where you are not quite sure where they are coming from, just slightly unexpected. Not everyone's cuppa tea certainly - thanks for taking the time!

**redworks** · 06-12-2012, 01:43 PM

hey emma dig what you are going for here. i would think that you could afford to 'soften' up the vocals a touch and have some delays creating a more of a ghosty sound especially if you have something like crytallizer by sound toys to warp them a bit. along with the strings in the background you could create subtle mood changes by then riding the fader a bit on those delays. i think that would also take the vocal from feeling a little too in the face.

**aj113** · 06-12-2012, 03:59 PM

It's not really my thing Emma but I can appreciate that it's well done.

The biggest problem for me is the dynamics of the lead vocals. Nothing wrong with having them at that level in the mix but I would have them compressed/limited heaps more than you have them, and I would also thin them out. This will allow them to sit better in the mix - especially at that level - they're a bit uncomfortable for the listener as they stand currently.

**Emma** · 06-12-2012, 07:14 PM

Thanks guys...
it's funny, I get so caught up in my own little musical world that I forget I am not-mainstream...

really appreciate you taking the time to listen and comment.

i would think that you could afford to 'soften' up the vocals a touch and have some delays creating a more of a ghosty sound

Mmmm, I'm not happy yet with the effects but still very much in experimental mode... I have all the vocals delaying at various points, in fact I ended up pulling the delay back, but I'm keen to play more with the 'lingering trail' effect (te he, I just made up that term).

The biggest problem for me is the dynamics of the lead vocals. Nothing wrong with having them at that level in the mix but I would have them compressed/limited heaps more than you have them, and I would also thin them out. This will allow them to sit better in the mix - especially at that level - they're a bit uncomfortable for the listener as they stand currently.

I agree with you here, but... being a bit bloody-minded.. you described exactly the effect that I had intended - to make the song a bit uncomfortable for the listener.

I know... I just have these ideas... you can see why I had to learn how to mix stuff myself

Particular thanks to BigD

**redworks** · 06-12-2012, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Emma

Mmmm, I'm not happy yet with the effects but still very much in experimental mode... I have all the vocals delaying at various points, in fact I ended up pulling the delay back, but I'm keen to play more with the 'lingering trail' effect (te he, I just made up that term).

yep being mainstream does not really mean much anyway. neil finn is not mainstream and there are a lot of people that get into his music. for that matter split enz would definitely not be mainstream and i would love to redo a couple of their songs. so enjoy the rolling streams meandering to your own hearts strings.
yep i was thinking the lingering trail as well as maybe a 'reverb wash' that would be great.

**garageband** · 06-12-2012, 07:37 PM

Two things mostly. 1st, I think you've made your piano too dark, via EQ. It's left it kinda cloudy. Ease up, it's also made it somewhat smaller than it should be. 2nd, Vocal gets more than a little hot in a few places and really jumps out of my speakers in a not-good way. More volume automation would be in order.

I don't care for the second piano part at all. It sounds weird. To work, you'd have to tighten up the ensemble between the two. That business where the 2nd pno is almost an eighth late . Yeah, I get it - what you were symbolically going for and all. Still, it's weird in a distracting, off-putting kind of way. It sounds like that other guy doesn't know the song and had to react to what the other guy just played. I mean, sure, you used an effect like that on the vocal line but doing it to both it too chaotic. Bad because it distracts from the vocal.

Hey, you're getting really good at this.

**Emma** · 06-12-2012, 08:02 PM

Thanks GB

I think you've made your piano too dark, via EQ. It's left it kinda cloudy.

I hear you but I like the clouds..

Vocal gets more than a little hot in a few places and really jumps out of my speakers in a not-good way. More volume automation would be in order.

mmm... still working on this one... I like it jumping a bit, but do agree there is work to be done... I did quite a bit of playing around with compression, using parallel for the quieter bits and alternating with in-line (?) for the louder bits that were getting flattened by the parallel. I do struggle with the widely varying dynamic range and while I'm happier with the sounds I'm getting, have a fair way to go yet... It's just such an art to hear the levels and nudge them with automation so that it achieves the result that I'm after... practise practise.. and more.. I seem to be spending days polishing such minute details and then finding rocks that I've overlooked.

don't care for the second piano part at all. It sounds weird.

heh heh... I LIKE weird..
I agree that some of the plinkplonks are odd but I do like the counterpoint and the lurch, but can see where you are coming from...

Hey, you're getting really good at this

And this bit... I'm a-gonna frame!

**Bigduggieface** · 06-12-2012, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by aj113

The biggest problem for me is the dynamics of the lead vocals. Nothing wrong with having them at that level in the mix but I would have them compressed/limited heaps more than you have them...

You know what I would do? This is a perfect time to get out your best quality compressor and apply it to the entire mix.

I like the immediacy of the vocals, but they do poke out just a bit. Rather than compressing the vocal individually, why not try applying it directly to the 2-bus?

Set the comp for about 20-45ms attack and a rather fast release. Set the threshold so that only the loudest vocal peaks make the compressor pull down. This can tend to soften the vocal dynamics and cohere the rest of the tracks together. I bet it will bring out the subtle reverbs as well.

If you're on a budget, might I suggest the Minimal Systems "Punch Compressor" or another similar 1176 clone. The Minimal Systems comp costs only about $10 and it is worth it a hundredfold.

Pianos and soprano voices work well with a lot of 2-bus compression. Just ask Kate Bush or Tori Amos.

**Emma** · 06-12-2012, 10:50 PM

yay... thanks... Time to experiment...
I have a new toy

I had tried doing stuff on the 2-bus a few months back, but it was a mess, hopefully now I have learnt a little more. Will re-post once I have dived in again.

**aj113** · 06-13-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by garageband

.... 1st, I think you've made your piano too dark, via EQ. It's left it kinda cloudy. Ease up, it's also made it somewhat smaller than it should be. ....

Well, I refrained from mentioning this as I have mentioned it before and Emma's not really buying it. But, FWIW Emma I would go along with GB. I know it's an upright, and it's never going to sound like a grand, but I just think you could get it sounding more posh than that - a bit of shelving, a bit of EQ, a bit of limiting etc.

I agree with you here, but... being a bit bloody-minded.. you described exactly the effect that I had intended - to make the song a bit uncomfortable for the listener.

Yes but I'm sure you don't mean 'uncomfortable' as defined by 'sonically displeasurable'. If you compress it, then thin it with EQ, you will be able to get it to the same level in the mix as you have currently but with significantly more presence- thus enhancing the 'uncomfortable-ness' that you're really after.

**aj113** · 06-13-2012, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Bigduggieface

You know what I would do? This is a perfect time to get out your best quality compressor and apply it to the entire mix....

It's certainly worth a try but here's my (somewhat miserable) prediction: I think that whatever benefits you gain from this, you are going to lose with the piano. I will be delighted to stand corrected but I just think that the piano is sitting in the wrong frequency range to benefit from global compression, and the result could be an unholy mess. However, you gotta try these things.....

**aj113** · 06-13-2012, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Emma

...It's just such an art to hear the levels and nudge them with automation so that it achieves the result that I'm after......

Emma, if you have the time, indulge me: Try smashing the crap out of the vocals - I'm talking about a 20 db (approx) brick wall boost. After smashing, thin them out big style, not only to shelve them, but to remove room reverb and any other spurious frequencies. You may need to manually automate some breaths down aftrewards and also de-ess but see what that does - it's what I would do, especially for this song where you are loooking for an atmospheric eerieness for the vocals.

**Emma** · 06-13-2012, 12:56 PM

Thanks aj...

I feel a bit like one of those meerkats, that pops its head out of the burrow, looks around a bit and then scoots back down again to hide in the comfy depths

Gonna play round some more... I'm absolutely in 'learning mode' and really appreciate the time/comments. I'm now settling down to learn my new compressor plug-in and these things seem to take me an age or two but hey, I do feel that I'm making progress. I've never managed to compress effectively on the 2-bus, so it's a great push to me to perservere with it some more. Trouble is, all these damned gadgets are different and compression theory does my head in... everything I read seems back to front and the only way that works for me is to play play and play some more...

**aj113** · 06-13-2012, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Emma

Thanks aj... ....and the only way that works for me is to play play and play some more...

I doubt if any of us are any different Emma - I'm certainly not. The only reason I know the little that I do is because I've made hundreds and hundreds of mistakes and learned form them.

**jetcon1** · 06-13-2012, 04:57 PM

Your songs clearly illustrate your personality, so there is a realness from the start that a "baby-done-left-me" song can't have.
Scanning down the comments while listening to the song, the vocal dynamics were begging for attention, and were picked up and addressed quite well by others. Thought I heard a strange little shift at about :24, maybe just me, nothing big. The dark piano worked for me - the song is dark. I listened several times closely to hear the song story. I couldn't tell if it was a person you know, once knew, or someone you manufactured out of need. Maybe it is left up to us as it is so often. Very uplifting

**dudermn** · 06-13-2012, 10:00 PM

pick up the tempo

get er all jolly

**Emma** · 06-13-2012, 10:29 PM

Thanks for your comments jetcon1, really appreciate it

And as for you dudermn....
sigh... Sometimes you are so very unhelpful y'know

**m24p** · 06-14-2012, 12:05 AM

How did I miss this? It sounds good. I got pretty drawn in. I'm digging the darker piano sound. Sounds like the strings and piano are old - kinda like old guitar strings start to dampen. Fits the song. The ploinking other piano and effects do seem to get the mood going.

The synthetic strings just don't work for me, though. Sorry. Not spooky, not haunting, and they don't (to me) feel appropriate. They feel like a they belong in a demo version of the song, maybe, not the real one. There's probably some effects you could through on it to make it work. A lo-fi chorus pad or something might be the trick. (I don't think you were actually being lazy at all, don't get me wrong. It just doesn't SOUND intentionally synthetic, even though it was.)

**Emma** · 06-14-2012, 02:29 AM

Thanks m24p

Yep, I'm still really in exploration mode... that synth string thing was funny... I had no master plan for this song - usually I have something going on in my head but I ended up trying stuff out and I just really liked that thin slippery artifical sound. Usually I've been playing with pseudo strings and going to the trouble often of manually adjusting each note and I just liked the fakeness... Glad you liked the piano... I'm stuck on this idea of my performance venue being in some old church hall with a really eclectic audience - I've done quite a heap of those sort of gigs and rather like them... a place where unexpected things happen.

Speaking of the unexpected... have you heard dudermn's drum tracks for Dark is the Pathway of Love - Emma I'm still quite overcome...

**R8R9R0** · 06-14-2012, 02:37 AM

Well, I love the song, and the vocals....I don't offer eq/compression/etc advice....But, I agree that the, or rather, I think the synth
kinda takes away from the naturalness of the song...I'd replace the synth with real strings; maybe a single viola or violin, or,
an electric guitar with an e-bow.....Just my thoughts...And, maybe you can sing on one of my demos, perhaps...hmmm.....

**m24p** · 06-14-2012, 03:05 PM

I think the main issue with the synth is that it doesn't have ambiance to match the song. NastyDLA could be used to give you a lo-fi chorusing delay, or something like that. You could probably get it to nestle right into the mix pretty easily with that.

I love the dynamics of this song. Just listened to another piano-driven song and the squished vocals got on my nerves after a while. I think the vocal dynamics here are just right, or nearly.

**Emma** · 06-14-2012, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by m24p

I love the dynamics of this song. Just listened to another piano-driven song and the squished vocals got on my nerves after a while. I think the vocal dynamics here are just right, or nearly.

I've been serially sweating over this... reading all this stuff on compression which does my head in... Talk about double negatives - the cause and effect details are so very confusing. I had to pretty well abandon the theory and just play around.. but I've been fairly relentlessly tweaking this and that and by trial and error am pretty clear that I WANT a reasonably raw vocal complete with transients. I've made a bunch of notes and am going to try polishing the rougher bits by automation rather than 2-bus comp as no matter what I do, it takes away too much and I lose that emotional sense that I'm aiming for - if that makes any sense. I can polish it so it sounds smooth and 'nice' but personally, I'm not keen on nice... It's just getting the confidence, by major trial and error, to create the sound that I want... It's just so very helpful to get this feedback.