"Down the River Road" by Kyle Knapp

[brandondrury]

It is much better. While the song comes across much better (I'm assuming that you are mixing to make the song better....not to conform to some sort of standard concocted in the mind) I still think you are pushing the limit with having the vocal THAT far in your in your face.

I'd like to see how the song sits with the vocals down another 2dB.

Really, as mentioned above, you should just play with the fader (up and down) until it just feels right. To me, it doesn't quite feel right yet. Did it feel right to you when you were mixing?

Brandon

[kyleknapp]

Originally Posted by Andrew07

mp3 cuts out about halfway for me

uh-oh, I'll check that out

[kyleknapp]

sorry about that, it should be fixed now

[kyleknapp]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

It is much better. While the song comes across much better (I'm assuming that you are mixing to make the song better....not to conform to some sort of standard concocted in the mind) I still think you are pushing the limit with having the vocal THAT far in your in your face.

I'd like to see how the song sits with the vocals down another 2dB.

Really, as mentioned above, you should just play with the fader (up and down) until it just feels right. To me, it doesn't quite feel right yet. Did it feel right to you when you were mixing?

Brandon

Hmmm, I thought it felt right, but I'll play with it some more.
No I'm not really trying to conform to a model, but I do notice many of the folkie singer/songwriters I like have the vocals way out front (some way more than this song actually, but then, most of them have nicer-sounding voices than mine.)

Another thought, the song gets "busier" farther into the track, so the vocals stand out more at the beginning, whereas they might get buried later on if I turn them down too much. I'll try dropping them another 2db and see what happens.

Thanks

[kyleknapp]

Okay, I take it back.

I cut the vocal track by 2db, and sure enough, it's still clear all thru the song, but the overall feel is better.

I did notice some "boominess" in the kick drum became evident when I cut the vocals, so I put a touch of compression on it.

Here's the update:
http://www.kyleknapp.com/audio/rroad20070125b.mp3

[brandondrury]

That boominess sounds like the loud bass. I realize this isn't hard rock, but the kick is basically inaudible on my computer. I'd cut the bass back 2dB and call it a mix.

The vocals are still very up front, but I think we have a song now.

I'd like to hear some folk music with vocals way more out in front than this song. Can you give me some examples?

Unless I'm recording an acapella type of thing, I find vocals sound good when you can just understand every word. Anything more than that, almost always seams to suck the excitement out of a track, even if the track is fairly laid back (compared to what I'm used to working with).

I like the vocals now. This is a kick ass mix right now. The bass thing is optional and just my personal taste.

Brandon

[Andrew07]

Sounds really good man. Mind sharing any more tracking/mixing info?

[brandondrury]

Yeah, good call.

The tracking was obviously mega pro and I'm interested to know what they are doing differently than I.

I noticed way more low end in the vocal that what I get without sounding boomy, dull, or boxy. Maybe this is that "****" thing that every piece of recording gear says it does, but none of them actually do.

Brandon

[kyleknapp]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

I like the vocals now. This is a kick ass mix right now. The bass thing is optional and just my personal taste.

Brandon

Wow, thanks!

Originally Posted by brandondrury

I'd like to hear some folk music with vocals way more out in front than this song. Can you give me some examples?
Brandon

mmm, okay, here's a few...
Pierce Pettis, Georgia Moon http://www.kyleknapp.com/audio/GeorgiaMoon.mp3
Jonathan Edwards, Athens County http://www.kyleknapp.com/audio/AthensCounty.mp3
Beth Amsel, Lonely Rider http://www.kyleknapp.com/audio/LoneyRider.mp3
David Wilcox, Common as the Rain http://www.kyleknapp.com/audio/CommonAsTheRain.mp3
Jackson Browne, These Days http://www.kyleknapp.com/audio/TheseDays.mp3
Mary-Chapin Carpenter, Late for your Life http://www.kyleknapp.com/audio/LateForYourLife.mp3
(there are probably better examples, but these were handy on my computer

Originally Posted by Andrew07

Sounds really good man. Mind sharing any more tracking/mixing info?

Well, for the guitar we recorded 4 simultaneous tracks:
1. bridge pickup (Martin Goldplus thinline in my Tacoma)
2. small diaphragm condenser mic aimed 4-6" from 12th fret
3. SM57 about 10" from guitar body (aimed at lower corner about 4" behind and below bridge)
4. AudioTechnica 4033 condenser about 3 feet in front of my right shoulder
(tracks were recorded almost a year ago, so I'm totally certain of the placements, but this should be fairly close.)

Vocals were recorded using a condenser mic with a tube in it (sorry I can't remember what model, but I think I remember that it hung upside down, and I think it had a BNC rather than XLR connector.) I sang pretty close into it, maybe 6-8 inches

I think the fiddle was recorded with the same vocal mic, but I'm not sure.

All the above was recorded in an isolation booth (semi-isolated anyway, we didn't usually close the door all the way as it got so stuffy in there)

For the drums, I can't remember what mics were used, but there was one in the kick, one aimed at the snare head, two on the toms (one above & one below, but the guy never hit the toms anyway), and two overhead, about a foot above the cymbals just inside the left and right edges of the kit. (But then, I'm not particularly happy with the drums. As I said I edited them heavily, but I'm not sure how much of my displeasure was performance vs tracking methods)

Tracking was done at Barnstormers Music in Austin TX (http://www.barnstormersmusic.com/) Bruce spent considerable time setting up for the sessions, changing and experimenting with placements, so I owe a lot of thanks to his ears for the quality of the tracks. We'll see how close I come as I do future tracking in my home studio.

[DT Chris]

Very cool. I read this topic from the beginning and could hear the changes from each version as you made them... Interesting.