Classic Rock/Indie. Great song, mix okay?

[briefcasemanx]

http://home.comcast.net/~briefcasema...w_eq_3_mp3.mp3

Tracking advice, if you can give any without seeing what I did mixwise, would help, as well as the normal mix advice. Thanks to anyone who gives their opinion. Feel free to destroy my hopes and dreamzz.

[.tom]

well, yer pans are too wide on the kit. it makes for less rms power when the tom is used for those swells. same deal with the guitars. guitar right has better rms sound/performance so, this one could scoot in around R7 or closer to center while the other could sit L15 or more off center and the embelishing guitars could sprinkle pan like they are....just trying to say the song would flow better if the power stays more center behind the singer.... cool work dude, it could be fine as is if you say so

[brandondrury]

I couldn't imagine ever mixing with everything panned no wider than 15% either side. You had might as well mix in mono if you are doing that. While there are records that are mixed fairly close, there are probably many more that are mixed taking full advantage of the stereo field.

it makes for less rms power when the tom is used for those swells

Hmmm. I'm not sure if I'm just not understanding you correctly, but I'm not sure how panning has any direct correlation between RMS vs Peak power. Depending on the panning laws of the software used, the overall level could appear to be lower (or higher) depending on where the panning is, but that doesn't effect the RMS or Peak level in a way that a fader wouldn't exactly replicate. To suggest that you lose RMS power makes it seam to me that you are fundamentally increasing the size of the transients.

On top of that, drums are not an "RMS" instrument anyway unless you factor in the decay.

I hope you can explain to me what you mean because I'm more than skeptical at this point.

guitar right has better rms sound/performance so

I've never heard the term "RMS sound" in my life when referring to guitars. I guess the only time I can remember hearing a non-RMS guitar would on something like the break down on Metallica's One. "Darkness. Imprisoning Me. All That See".... etc.

just trying to say the song would flow better if the power stays more center behind the singer....

That may be a possibility. That depends mostly on personal taste and what the band wants. Some of these indie bands want to hear all the little things the guitars are doing in a clearer way that a radio rock/pop song would.

I think you did a great job on the engineering / mix. There are some performance issues that bug me, but that isn't your fault, I guess.

Great job!

Brandon

[briefcasemanx]

yeah i was kind of confused by the rms thing, like he was looking at waveform statistics in wavelab or something and judging it based on that. I don't know, could you explain further the RMS thing and why it's important?

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it a lot.

[tonewheels]

Sounds great to me, nice song and good mix, I like the stereo spread, kinda reminds me of the Rheostatics sp?. The only thing I noticed is that the bass is stronger in the right speaker, maybe you panned it because there is a bit more going on with the guitar in the left speaker, sounds nice.
Ronnie

[briefcasemanx]

hmmmm, bass is panned center as is the kick. Maybe you're hearing the low end of the guitars, or organ? The guitars don't have much going on below 200hz though.

[thesilentdrummer]

I think the vocals are a little low, IMHO, or the vocalist doesn't sing clearly. I like the effect on the vocals, as it does give a classic rock feel. I think the snare and kick can come up just a tad, and the toms are panned kind of hard, but I can live with them.

[.tom]

crud. i wrote something fairly long 4u but my browser/login didn't post it. i'll try to make it more clear, short order now. i'm suggesting your pans have your power distribution uneven and there are some odd differences in freq response L/R within this mix or on the 2buss. it's just how i hear it. the overall power is bigger L than R. fuller,fatter and the power starts left and echoes right. the toms feel too close to the walls L/R and not at all close to eachother. there is crosscapturing in the oheds or this capture is not stereo and the mix is panned stereo. it (drum mix)just sounds a bit odd 2me. no big deal, i like the vibe of this tune.

now, about this rms thing... its about average power. up there i just said "fuller,fatter and the power starts left" ...at the time i wrote initially i thought it was guitar but, maybe its synth key you now mention. average power. rms. how does this song command power? guitars, of course --6string and....bass? is that key bass or key added? anywayz, most rok power comes from great sustaining guitar amps so, i think of this average power thing or, rms to be directly descriptive of guitar sound. drums can be punchy and sometimes have a sustaining power when toms are ridden or pounded like in that swell during this song. certainly, rms is a odd word to use in describing drum sound but, when i hear those toms sustaining power during the fills and swells, they are more powerful to the song notes they play through than the bass guitar. thats power. and its longer than an eighth note of power in this song, for which there are several notes in a row played on toms. powerful crescent in the song marked by those tom notes. just suggesting perhaps the pans pulled in would serve those moments better by putting the power full behind the vocals. i approach panning differently with each song. i never think mono tom toms and i always capture drums with at least one matched pair mic'd stereo split. sometimes it's center field drums/wide cymbal mix...sometimes it's wide toms/cymbals and center field kik/snare... sometimes it's a capture that really sounds like the kit's right in front of me --even the snare is off center a bit and the kix 5x5. wut a pity few producers of todays sound find great value in miking and mixing a real kit. not yoo's guys, i'm talking the handful we all listen to. this is wut has taken the danger and real raw power/jagged edge off rok... system of a down is my fav band of todaze bands and 1 reason is real drum sound... i also like composing and mixing songs using reason and my own samples too but, that is not the only way i make music anywayz, i was trying to discuss wut i thought would make this mix sound better. mite werk, mite b completely fos...i'm a lefty

[brandondrury]

(drum mix)just sounds a bit odd 2me. no big deal, i like the vibe of this tune.

I agree with both. I heard something a tad funny in the drums too, but it's not worth dicking with.

most rok power comes from great sustaining guitar amps so, i think of this average power thing or, rms to be directly descriptive of guitar sound.

There is not doubt that guitars are RMS. However, your explanation here seams to correlate rock power with RMS power. Well, I'm afraid you can't multiply the peak of the song by .707 and end up with the RMS value.

I just don't see how you can merge RMS and musical power. RMS is used in physics and can be measured mathematically. Musical power is completely subjective. My hypthesis of the month in February was "The confusion of subjectivity and objectivity is the root of all evil.". (I'm not saying you are Hitler). I'm just thought it was ironic.

This whole "power" while panning thing is an interesting topic. However, I'm still not buying the notion that you will always have more power with the toms panned very lightly (if you are actually saying this). If I want more power from my toms (assuming I already have them panned where the song calls from them), I turn them up. That's the easiest way of adding RMS and peak power to anything. Just turn the damn thing up. (Of course, we are assuming the drummer played with maximum power here as well).

just suggesting perhaps the pans pulled in would serve those moments better by putting the power full behind the vocals.

Well it never hurts to try. However, with "full power" behind the vocals, it usually means you need to turn them down so they are not fighting the vocal. The center is a mine field of sorts on many mixes (not all, certainly).

If anything, this discussion brings up the value in taking time to experiment with pans toward the end of a mix.

system of a down is my fav band of todaze bands and 1 reason is real drum sound...

Obviously, you know that System of Down has a "real" drum sound, but are you really 100% sure that they used "real" methods to acheive this. Most bands do mic up a kit extremely well and use all kinds of editing and other mixing tricks to enhance (arguably) this sound. Layering samples is very popular. Some don't like it. I can't see how it's any different in methodology from sending a snare to 2 different compressors, for example.

If you don't like modern drums, thats 100% okay. However, most of the time it's not how you get there, but IF you get there. No holds barred (Hulk Hogan style). I'd cheat, lie, and steal any way I could to get whatever drum sound I was looking for (including a natural tone). This whole game is an illusion.

I programmed drums for a country pop album I produced. The big time mastering engineer had no idea.

Brandon

[.tom]

....hank williams just called from his cell, he said to tell you yer no longer part of the legacy. then, jesus called --he said to tell you he died for your behavior. its satan's birthday party so, i'll hafta get bak to you a little later tonight on this....