[shackman]

Very coherent: You are obviously comfortable with what exists, and that's fine - for you. I'm hugely uncomfortable with what is, and for me, it is centred on a lack of fairness.

Originally Posted by paul999

I don't think society needs to be fair."

So we'll always differ.

Originally Posted by paul999

We live in a society that makes it easy for people to earn minimum wage 40 hrs. a week for anyone of less then average intelligence in almost any field including music.

I understand what you're syaing there, though I hope it's not quite so bald as your words suggest. And there's a tone I heartily dislike because your sentence suggests it is people with "less than average intelligence" who get minimum wage.
My wife is a highly intelligent woman. She gets minimum wage in part-time work. Why? Because she is also the 24/7 365 days a year carer to someone who is disabled. That's unpaid work supported by a government benefit which works out at 0.539513 CAD an hour (just used one of those conversion tools to get the number of CAD).
But that's our life story.

Originally Posted by paul999

Society doesn't owe anyone an average wage.

Does it owe anyone anything or is it ok to do away with welfare and - from the comfort of our self-centred lives - watch the unemployed, the disabled, the mentally ill, the old rot. I'M NOT being judgemental. There are people, millions, who think that's the way to go. You are NOT one of them

because:

Originally Posted by paul999

I believe in national health care.

So I think we have a tiny slice of common ground and not much else, and that's fine too.

You DID misinterpret (perhaps my statement was ambiguous) one thing I said.

I do NOT mean nor believe that "low wages are the only ones that are offered".

I mean that for some people that's all they can get hold of because there ARE NOT jobs in their location which offer more; or because they ARE of lower than average intelligence; or because they are disabled; or because they have a criminal record; or because the list is almost infinite.

Originally Posted by paul999

Not everybody earns minimum wage so there must be other wages offered.

NOT EVERYWHERE. NOT FOR EVERYONE.

Originally Posted by paul999

Where is your proof of this on such a wide scale.

Don't need proof because I qualified my words with the word "APPEARS". That is MY perception. It may be wrong. Where's your proof that I am?

Originally Posted by paul999

Do you seriously think GC has this kind of pull. How many legislators has GC bribed.

No I don't. They ride on the back of the legislation as you or I would. So good people in good companies (from what our friend said to start this rolling, I doubt GC area good company) work within the law and - in my view) the law's an ass.

Paul, I'm not just saying this. In my siuation living in rurla northern England with little chance to get out of the place to debate, meeting someone with a brain and an intellect and a capacity to debate is FANTASTIC.

NOTHING I have said hear is directed personally at you. Good politicians - in my view - can be the best of freidns and yet at opposite ends of the spectrum politically. I HAVE met some of those when I worked as a journalist and I can tell you it is true.

Your final comment is the one which really hurts me - not personally - but politically.

Here's how I see it (I'll roll round to your point in a mo).
The banking crisis, the recession, the mass unemployment, the loss of homes, the human cost of the crash all came about because people in high rise blocks in the City of London, in New York, in ???Toronto, in Tokyo were making money from money. Not working to produce anything (wealth???); not benefitting anyone but themselves.

And we are the suckers who pay for it, and the suckers you mentioned who don't help themselves are left on minimum wage or nothing.

Originally Posted by paul999

The more you earn the more you have the opportunity you to earn money from your money. This seems like a reasonable reward for working hard.

At what cost?

Cheers

PS. I haven't read back through this, so excuse typos and irrantional arguments. It's where I sit.